WHERE IS MARGINALIZATION?

PART 2

BY PREM MISIR
Sunday, April 06, 2008

Last week, we addressed ethnic distribution within the public service; we showed that Africans are not marginalized within the upper levels of the hierarchy and that there is an evolving ethnic mix in the hierarchy of control throughout the public service.

Within the school system, Indians comprised about a third and Africans over half of the school heads; with a declining ethnic imbalance among REDOs; but an imbalance of African over Indian staff at UG.

Today, we present the ethnic distribution on State Boards and budgetary allocations in Region 4.

Identifying risk factors for marginalization is a useful preventive strategy. Significant risk factors for marginalization include poverty, unemployment, sickness, physical disability, among others.

Risk factors, however, are not forms of marginalization and their presence should not be equated with marginalization. In other words, being poor and unemployed does not necessarily mean that you are marginalized. Unfortunately, many political commentators equate poverty and unemployment with marginalization.


Both Indians and Africans have a fairly equitable distribution on the State Boards in Education in 2002 and 2006. African numbers are relatively greater at the National Library, Government Technical Institute, and Queen’s College. Indians enjoy some prominence on the University of Guyana Council, Cyril Potter College of Education; and with fair representation at President’s College.


Table 1.7(a) shows that in a review of 15 State Boards in 2006, an evolving equitable distribution of ethnicity prevails. Indians outnumbered Africans on only two Boards, the National Commission on Women and GNCB; Africans outnumbered Indians on seven Boards; and with ‘Others’ outnumbering both Indians and Africans on one Board, Iwokrama. Interestingly, both major ethnic groups have equal Directorships on six Boards.

The findings in a ‘marginalization’ study of 27 different State Boards in 2002, however, showed Africans were in the majority on 13 and Indians on 12, with two State Boards having equal numbers drawn from these two major ethnic groups.

The ethnic distribution of Directorships in that 2002 study today remains basically unchanged; and the 2002 and 2006 studies, clearly, showed that Africans edged out the ethnic competition for Directorships on these Boards. A welcome development, however, is the evolving presence of minority Directors not from the two major ethnic groups.


Region Four is highlighted because it is (a) the most populated of all 10 Regions; (b) it has a significant African population; (c) it also houses Georgetown, the Capital City of Guyana and the seat of Central Government; (d) Georgetown has a large number of African dwellers; and (e) the PNCR politically controls this Region.

“Identifying risk factors for marginalization is a useful preventive strategy. Significant risk factors for marginalization include poverty, unemployment, sickness, physical disability, among others. Risk factors, however, are not forms of marginalization and their presence should not be equated with marginalization. In other words, being poor and unemployed does not necessarily mean that you are marginalized. Unfortunately, many political commentators equate poverty and unemployment with marginalization.”

Region 4 budgetary allocation was $128.6M for 2006, quite comparable in Regions with a large Indian population. TheRegional Administration then assigned $79.9M in the areas of high African-concentration as indicated in Table 1.8. Projects in other parts of the Region received the residual sum of about $48.1M.

In this paper, these sample Tables are part of a larger study. But what do these Tables indicate? Clearly, that social marginalization among Africans is not evidenced in the public sector.

Reference Source

1. The political decision to cut off ads from Stabroek News, after the President previously slammed the newspaper and now that Kwame McCoy is also slamming the newspaper, proves that the government discriminated against SN by withdrawing the taxpayers' ads while allowing Kaieteur News and Chronicle to keep on receiving them

2. There are both black and Indian criminals and criminal suspects in Guyana, but it is obvious that there is a greater emphasis on pursuing black criminals and suspects than Indian criminals and suspects.

So, even if the government's apologists deny there is marginalization and discrimination, the foregoing two references stand as proof government is practising D&M.

Which Indian villages harbor Indian criminals that are wanted by the police.

List some names of Indian criminals who are wanted by the Police.

Ken,

If you lack the ability to read and comprehend, then don't post responses that make you look dull and dim. Re-read point number 2 and tell me where it says Indian villages are harboring Indian criminals wanted by the police.

Rather than seek to implicate ALL Indians here, I am implying that the Indian-run/dominated PPP regime knows there are Indian criminals and suspects - from narcotics smuggling, to money laundering, to bribing, to high sea pirating, to evading taxes, customs-excise duties, to fuel smuggling and so on - who are not being pursued on criminal charges. Yes, there are blacks also involved in or suspected of being involved in criminal activities, but I believe the government should be fair and balanced in its pursuit of criminals and suspects, regardless of their race.

What do you make of the government's case against an Indian named Buddy's on fuel smuggling charges, but while the case is still pending the government lends Buddy's millions for his private hotel project, appoints a PPP MP (Nandlall) as prosecuting attorney in the case, fires the CEO of the company pressing the charges against Buddy's, then watches as the case gets dismissed without appeal?

What do you make of the government not finding the actual killers of the 24 innocent Guyanese, but remanding a black ex-army officer on sedition and terrorism charges because he offered to be a mediator between the gunmen and the government?

Do you think the guy who bulldozed a parcel of land in Corentyne to facilitate an illegal airstrip (for narcotics smuggling) will give us his name? Do you think Dataram who was freed on bail on extradition charges to the US for drugs smuggling will returnto the police to complete his case?

If the government is not going after Indians who are committing crimes, or criminally investigating how they came by their new found wealth and business acquisitions, then it is not going to publish a list of names. Should we then expect these Indian criminals and suspects to offer up their own names for us?

The politics of convenience is dictating how the PPP government should approach crime fighting, from the dangerous types with guns to the office types with pens and phones. No wonder it is in no hurry to reform the police after 15 years in power; it might expose its supporters.

quote:

Ken,

If you lack the ability to read and comprehend, then don't post responses that make you look dull and dim.

this is pretty accurate

quote:

Originally posted by raymond:

quote:

Ken,

If you lack the ability to read and comprehend, then don't post responses that make you look dull and dim.

this is pretty accurate

Who heads the police force? What type of people is the majority in the police force and hold most of the top position?

quote:

Originally posted by Communicator:
1. The political decision to cut off ads from Stabroek News, after the President previously slammed the newspaper and now that Kwame McCoy is also slamming the newspaper, proves that the government discriminated against SN by withdrawing the taxpayers' ads while allowing Kaieteur News and Chronicle to keep on receiving them

2. There are both black and Indian criminals and criminal suspects in Guyana, but it is obvious that there is a greater emphasis on pursuing black criminals and suspects than Indian criminals and suspects.

So, even if the government's apologists deny there is marginalization and discrimination, the foregoing two references stand as proof government is practising D&M.

Stop being a prick.. The article is about black marginalization.. Where is it? The government discrimination against Indians, my foot.. If you break the law you should be punisheed and that's what SN did. You are not the only one who can read and comprehend!!! Sometimes I think that you lack commonsence..

quote:

Originally posted by raymond:

quote:

Ken,

If you lack the ability to read and comprehend, then don't post responses that make you look dull and dim.

this is pretty accurate

How would you know??

All this back and forth is usless politicking. The issue is clear. The dual nature of our society breeds a sense of alienation when one side is locked out from decision making in the Parliament and the Presidency. There is no getting around that even by balancing the cabinet and claiming you are a multi ethnic party. Power is presumed to be in the hands of the ethnic group that puts its ethnic based party in power. This is the crux of African marginalization as it was for Indians when LFSB was in office. It is a sense of powerlessness of an ethnic group in an ethnically bifurcated nation. Decentralize power so people have a sense they control their own destiny and these claims will disappear.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken:
Which Indian villages harbor Indian criminals that are wanted by the police.

List some names of Indian criminals who are wanted by the Police.

Where do the Indo pirates of Berbice live?

quote:

Originally posted by Ramakant_p:


Stop being a prick.. The article is about black marginalization.. Where is it? The government discrimination against Indians, my foot.. If you break the law you should be punisheed and that's what SN did. You are not the only one who can read and comprehend!!! Sometimes I think that you lack commonsence..

It is a well known accepted fact that large % of AfroGuyanese feel discriminated. How does Prem Misir prove thats not the case?

1. He ignores the private sector where most of the jobs exist.

2. His own stats indicate that Afros occupy a declining % of the top positions in the public sector if you were to track his stats over the years.

3. The people who he uses form a scant minority within the over all Afro pop. He hasnt said a thing about what the others are doing. Please give the old cops, soldiers and clerks a rest because these are among the worst paying jobs and the police force has vacancies of 1,500. There may even be vacancies in the civil service and GDF.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: caribj,

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
All this back and forth is usless politicking. The issue is clear. The dual nature of our society breeds a sense of alienation when one side is locked out from decision making in the Parliament and the Presidency. There is no getting around that even by balancing the cabinet and claiming you are a multi ethnic party. Power is presumed to be in the hands of the ethnic group that puts its ethnic based party in power. This is the crux of African marginalization as it was for Indians when LFSB was in office. It is a sense of powerlessness of an ethnic group in an ethnically bifurcated nation. Decentralize power so people have a sense they control their own destiny and these claims will disappear.

I agree! They can do this by handing over certain powers to the regional governments..

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
This is the crux of African marginalization as it was for Indians when LFSB was in office. .

Have you ever done a survey to establish that this is why AfroGuyanese feel alienated? When questioned some cite employment discrimination. Where are most of the jobs these days? Not in govt.



I would suggest that proper surveys be done by objective parties to determine the basis of the variety of ethnic isnecurities in Guyana. Where do these sentiments come from and why? Are these sentiments supportable by the facts? Are there structural reasons rooted in our history that might explain barriers, if they do exist?

The best way to end the arguments is if people had the facts that were derived from a comprehensive survey performed by an objective source. Sorry the PPP controlled ERC isnt objective, and I dont even know what their competencies are in doing surveys.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramakant_p:

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
All this back and forth is usless politicking. The issue is clear. The dual nature of our society breeds a sense of alienation when one side is locked out from decision making in the Parliament and the Presidency. There is no getting around that even by balancing the cabinet and claiming you are a multi ethnic party. Power is presumed to be in the hands of the ethnic group that puts its ethnic based party in power. This is the crux of African marginalization as it was for Indians when LFSB was in office. It is a sense of powerlessness of an ethnic group in an ethnically bifurcated nation. Decentralize power so people have a sense they control their own destiny and these claims will disappear.

I agree! They can do this by handing over certain powers to the regional governments..

Region 4 was almost won by the PPP when Africans split their votes. You know this. So how does this guarantee that Africans dont push an incompetent PNC merely to keep Indians out as they already try to do instead of seraching for better alternatives. How does this benefit any one.

quote:

Originally posted by Communicator:
What do you make of the government not finding the actual killers of the 24 innocent Guyanese, but remanding a black ex-army officer on sedition and terrorism charges because he offered to be a mediator between the gunmen and the government?

Do .

Point of correction. In Jan/Feb 50 people were killed so Lusignan and Bartica only account for 50% of the murders. Why arent people talking about these others?

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
This is the crux of African marginalization as it was for Indians when LFSB was in office. .

Have you ever done a survey to establish that this is why AfroGuyanese feel alienated? When questioned some cite employment discrimination. Where are most of the jobs these days? Not in govt.



I would suggest that proper surveys be done by objective parties to determine the basis of the variety of ethnic isnecurities in Guyana. Where do these sentiments come from and why? Are these sentiments supportable by the facts? Are there structural reasons rooted in our history that might explain barriers, if they do exist?

The best way to end the arguments is if people had the facts that were derived from a comprehensive survey performed by an objective source. Sorry the PPP controlled ERC isnt objective, and I dont even know what their competencies are in doing surveys.

YOu do not represent them. I don't have to do a survey. THe advocacy from ACDA, Hinds, Ogunseye, Alexander ( both) and even the PNC with their kith and kin call is about group survival. Indians look at it the same way as is seen by every other post on this board so you are threading water on your own.

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
YOu do not represent them. I don't have to do a survey. THe advocacy from ACDA, Hinds, Ogunseye, Alexander ( both) and even the PNC with their kith and kin call is about group survival. Indians look at it the same way as is seen by every other post on this board so you are threading water on your own.

1. I never claimed to represent them and in fact this is why I insist on a survey. I repeat what I hear. Thast all.

2. You would be teh last person to do it as you have an agenda that you propject so cannnot be expected to show objectivity.

3. Given the many arguments that we see between various AfroGuyanese commentators I fail to see why you hold them up as evidence of anything. Clearly there are many different realities that AfroGuyanese live in and none were chosen by the masses of Guyanese blacks.

They express their opinions based on their agendas and ther realities. BTW Ogunseye and Phillips are a good deal more militantly Afrocentric than I am. You need to read what they write. Yet Trotman comes at it from a very different point of view.

So where does the average AfroGuyanese fit into all of this. Do you believe that they consider FineMan to be a hero fighting for their rights as Ogunseye sometimes implies? I am curious but you arent. You see them as 250k individuals all marching in lock step all thinking that African rule will solve all their problems. It didnt when Hoyte was in power and they felt he was handing everything to Indians. It didnt matter to them whether this was true (most likley not true).

Unless and until proper surveys are done to study ethnic insecurity with both you and TK rendered ineligable to perform them, we will never know what most think about the ethnic insecurity issue, or whether what they think is backed by teh facts as they perceive teh facts to be.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: caribj,

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
YOu do not represent them. I don't have to do a survey. THe advocacy from ACDA, Hinds, Ogunseye, Alexander ( both) and even the PNC with their kith and kin call is about group survival. Indians look at it the same way as is seen by every other post on this board so you are threading water on your own.

1. I never claimed to represent them and in fact this is why I insist on a survey. I repeat what I hear. Thast all.

2. You would be teh last person to do it as you have an agenda that you propject so cannnot be expected to show objectivity.

3. Given the many arguments that we see between various AfroGuyanese commentators I fail to see why you hold them up as evidence of anything. Clearly there are many different realities that AfroGuyanese live in and none were chosen by the masses of Guyanese blacks.

They express their opinions based on their agendas and ther realities. BTW Ogunseye and Phillips are a good deal more militantly Afrocentric than I am. You need to read what they write. Yet Trotman comes at it from a very different point of view.

So where does the average AfroGuyanese fit into all of this. Do you believe that they consider FineMan to be a hero fighting for their rights as Ogunseye sometimes implies? I am curious but you arent. You see them as 250k individuals all marching in lock step all thinking that African rule will solve all their problems. It didnt when Hoyte was in power and they felt he was handing everything to Indians. It didnt matter to them whether this was true (most likley not true).

Unless and until proper surveys are done to study ethnic insecurity with both you and TK rendered ineligable to perform them, we will never know what most think about the ethnic insecurity issue, or whether what they think is backed by teh facts as they perceive teh facts to be.

My agenda is clear; get Indians and Africans off the internecine warfare bandwagon so they can cooperate on communitarian goals. I don't give a damn what has them insecure. I am not their national psychologist and no one has ever yet attempted to "cure" a group of their collective psychosis. As is often the case it is a projection of the environment rather than internal failings.

I know the pathology and as most doctors never know the agents and agency of disease progression on a cellular level but on the macro level of systems, I attempt to do just that. You preoccupy yourself with the minutia, it may come in useful by the next century. I do not have that time nor does the nation.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: D2,

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by Communicator:
What do you make of the government not finding the actual killers of the 24 innocent Guyanese, but remanding a black ex-army officer on sedition and terrorism charges because he offered to be a mediator between the gunmen and the government?

Do .

Point of correction. In Jan/Feb 50 people were killed so Lusignan and Bartica only account for 50% of the murders. Why arent people talking about these others?

Due to the manner, intent and share hatred shown, especially in Lusignan as evidence by the wanton and cold blooded murders of tots and their mothers, just because of their ethnicity. This appeals to the emotion in most civilized humans, regardless of race. I'm not brushing over the others, especially Bartica.

quote:

Originally posted by baseman:
Point of correction. In Jan/Feb 50 people were killed so Lusignan and Bartica only account for 50% of the murders. Why arent people talking about these others?

Due to the manner, intent and share hatred shown, especially in Lusignan as evidence by the wanton and cold blooded murders of tots and their mothers, just because of their ethnicity. This appeals to the emotion in most civilized humans, regardless of race. I'm not brushing over the others, especially Bartica.[/QUOTE]

And so the people whose murder you have no idea what the motive was are less valuable than the others?

Crime is crime. Murder is murder and ALL Guyanese need to be protected. Not just Indians.

I am amazed at your brazen indifference to the Indians who were killed by Indo pirates.

Black people will always complain, every country in the world they make excuse for their inability to keep up economically with their peers. In the US they blame it on "the man", in Guyana its "collies". Until they come to terms with their own faults their chafe in life will never improve.