quote:

Originally posted by Prince Juno:

quote:

Follow your own advice. Mind you own business.

Right or wrong on the subject, he have a right of his opinion and we must respect that. Don't let personal feeling over shadow your tolerance for open discussion.

Well he suggest that we mind our own business. So I was just asking him to do the same. Since I don't tell people to mind their own business, I don't have to apply that to myself.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Since your nonsense about moon god has been disproved..not by Musilms..but by the great Rambam i will leave that alone.
So let me get this...u conveniently read into my statements what only your warped mind could. I never denied a jewish presence at certain times--proving the lie of your ascription to me. Hence my time period. But this is obvious..thus far you have made accusations and I have asked u to substantiate them.
As for Umar..i really don't know why I am wasting time with you..but here goes: It was Umar that OPENED the city to the Jews, inviting them to come back...in spite of the pleas of the byzantines.
Now as for the forceful conversions of my ancestors...that certain is a possibility..as much as the fact that it is possible they willingly converted as have many. Now since we are entertaining your suppositions, behind the veil of anonymity, here is something for you to entertain
1. we know europe was christianized by the sword.
but in india, with the majority religion, could you prove that the conversions were peaceful?
You r the type of interlocutor people like me love..because everything you say..I provide not a MUSILM response, but that of scholars from within the different traditions.
What gets me somewhat riled is that here I am boasting about the level of education among guyanese in general..and you come with your nonsense that is not even on a child's plane.
As for T in the previous post...I find it amazing that he should talk abut Islam plagiarizing (an interesting term), and then forgets that the faith he follows has originality..even though it conveniently mistranlates hebrew words to find foundation for its concepts. A jewish man...who becomes a god..but is not really god...but is god...who is peaceful..but whose followers pillage....nah..that is too easy.

Rambam never set out to disprove that ancient Muslims were moon worshippers.

Read and educate yourself about your moon god ancestry: http://biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

This is funny....Ramban did not? Because he could not. Now u refer me to a tendentious bible website that believes God has a son (polytheism) to prove the worlds strictest monotheists are moon worshippers? Let us for argument assume that the Muslims are...at least their moon god is potent enough to not have his folloers believe he is impotent in times of stress...
but having thus digressed...and teased u with your own strategy...let us get back to the point. Prove what I aked you to prove.
2. As every wannabe debator knows, you don't prove a negative..you prove an accusation. Refer me not to a site, but come with your own arguments let us marvel your intellectual aptitute...or witness your lack thereof...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
This is funny....Ramban did not? Because he could not. Now u refer me to a tendentious bible website that believes God has a son (polytheism) to prove the worlds strictest monotheists are moon worshippers? Let us for argument assume that the Muslims are...at least their moon god is potent enough to not have his folloers believe he is impotent in times of stress...
but having thus digressed...and teased u with your own strategy...let us get back to the point. Prove what I aked you to prove.
2. As every wannabe debator knows, you don't prove a negative..you prove an accusation. Refer me not to a site, but come with your own arguments let us marvel your intellectual aptitute...or witness your lack thereof...

First you claimed that he proved that the moon god roots of Islam was bogus. Now you are saying that he did not. Make up your mind man. There is enough evidence out there to prove that prior to Mohammed, the Arabs worshipped the moon. Mohammed took parts of the Torah to form what you now accept as the Koran. That is why there are so much commonality between Islam and Judiasm. Your cresent moon is a vestige of the past. After Mohammed brough some civility to the Arabs with this new religion which he claimed was revealed to him in a cave. He neglected to mention the Torah which he "borrowed" from genourously. When he brought the "borrowed" scriptures to the Arabs he also was astute enough to know that to be accepted he had to incorporate some of their heathen practices. Hence the name Allah(moon god) and the irreverence of the cresent moon. Here's another link to bring you to your senses.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

Even Yusuf Ali in the english translation of the Holy Quran confirms the Moon worship of Arabs prior to Mohammed.
http://wri.leaderu.com/articles/islam-singh.html

quote:

The Pagan deities best known in the Ka'ba and round about Mecca were Lat, Uzza and Manat...They were all female goddesses." (Yusuf Ali: pgs. 1619-1623)

In his explanation of why the Qur'an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32, "Nay, verily by the Moon," Yusuf Alli comments, "The moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness." (fn. 5798, pg. 1644)
Muhammad commanded his followers to participate in these pagan ceremonies while the pagans were still in control of Mecca. (See Yusuf Ali, fn. 214, pg. 78.)
Islam went on to adopt these pagan religious rites.
"...the whole of the [pagan] pilgrimage was spiritualized in Islam..." (Yusuf Ali: fn. 223 pg. 80)

What exactly did you ask me to prove again?

Let me get this right: u are aking me to repeat what I asked you to provce? That proves you can't read.
Now let me get back to dealing with something I let go in order to set u up. Rambam, on whom u now seem to want to claim expertise, had every reason to seek to disprove islam. but he could not. So he went on to say to the jews that the Muslims wre monotheists. Note he did not say the same for xians.
Now let us get back to what you are trying to hard to get away from: Where am i saying talking about moon god roots? Are you being deliberately and transparently deceptive? I engaged you in a philosopical enterprise. LEt us ASSUME that the moon god concept is true, let us assuem islam worships a moon god..the idea of it is still better than that of a god who cannot save his own son. Got it?
Now...if you want to try to run from what I asked you to prove...do it some other fashin.
nOW ONE has the right to ask why am I entertaining you here? Well for a reason..look at what you tried to do...u cited note 214 to sy that Muhammad had the Muslims do pagan rites. here is the footnote:
When this was revealed, the city of Mecca was in the hands of the enemies of Islam, and the regulations about the fighting and the pilgrimage came together and were interconnected. But the revelation provides, as always, for the particular occasion, and also for normal conditions. Mecca soon passed out of the hands of the enemies of Islam. People sometimes came long distances to Mecca before the pilgrimage season began. Having performed the umra, they stayed on for the formal Hajj. In case the pilgrim had spent his money, he is shown what he can do, rich or poor, and yet hold his head high among his fellows, as having performed all rites as prescribed.

Is this the level of your integrity...ascribing false quotes to someone to make your point? That alone serves to discredit you. Why don't we get back to the point and try to prove what I asked you to prove. Or admit that in your bigotry and ignroance, you have made yourself look like a fool. I love to take on such as you for you only reflect what I talk about...scriptural illiteracy. While you are trying to respond, do some reading on Mithraism.

BTW: this is your origninal conttention. U still have to prove it.
The land did not belong to them at all, it wasn't even occupied, it was all desert, no titles existed. It was only after the Israelis started transforming the land into an oasis that suddenly they were occupiers.
If it was not occupied, who are all the refugees? It is one thing to utter inanities, it is another to deny the existence of a people out of sheer maniacal bigotry.
Guess what? even if islam did worship a moon god..i would prefer the ethics of that moon god to the nonsense you come with.
Another thing: I hit you on one post of yusuf ali. For the otehr misquote you made concering him, I will advise the readers following this to check the footnote out on the internet to see what a liar you are. YA admitted that the pagans worshipped the moon. that was all.
Incidentally: linguistics show that the word ilah--from whence Allah--is the same cognate as ELI. Meaning that on the cross, if we follow your reasoning, jesus was calling out for the moon god. Oy ve. u are too easy. Even Mrs. T is brainier that you are..and that...since u seem to be a newcomer here...is really something u ought to note with shame.

So that u don't slip away through your vile prevarication, ascribing quotes to a dead exegete, lemme get u back on track:excerpt of mine from an earlier post...
U seem to be the poster child for ignorance. Ooppss..ignorance is when you don't know something. Tell me about these rapings. And please, come with some reliable sources, not propaganda. And I promise you I will come with documented stuff from three other religions. One of which might surprise you greatly...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Let me get this right: u are aking me to repeat what I asked you to provce? That proves you can't read.
Now let me get back to dealing with something I let go in order to set u up. Rambam, on whom u now seem to want to claim expertise, had every reason to seek to disprove islam. but he could not. So he went on to say to the jews that the Muslims wre monotheists. Note he did not say the same for xians.
Now let us get back to what you are trying to hard to get away from: Where am i saying talking about moon god roots? Are you being deliberately and transparently deceptive? I engaged you in a philosopical enterprise. LEt us ASSUME that the moon god concept is true, let us assuem islam worships a moon god..the idea of it is still better than that of a god who cannot save his own son. Got it?
Now...if you want to try to run from what I asked you to prove...do it some other fashin.
nOW ONE has the right to ask why am I entertaining you here? Well for a reason..look at what you tried to do...u cited note 214 to sy that Muhammad had the Muslims do pagan rites. here is the footnote:
When this was revealed, the city of Mecca was in the hands of the enemies of Islam, and the regulations about the fighting and the pilgrimage came together and were interconnected. But the revelation provides, as always, for the particular occasion, and also for normal conditions. Mecca soon passed out of the hands of the enemies of Islam. People sometimes came long distances to Mecca before the pilgrimage season began. Having performed the umra, they stayed on for the formal Hajj. In case the pilgrim had spent his money, he is shown what he can do, rich or poor, and yet hold his head high among his fellows, as having performed all rites as prescribed.

Is this the level of your integrity...ascribing false quotes to someone to make your point? That alone serves to discredit you. Why don't we get back to the point and try to prove what I asked you to prove. Or admit that in your bigotry and ignroance, you have made yourself look like a fool. I love to take on such as you for you only reflect what I talk about...scriptural illiteracy. While you are trying to respond, do some reading on Mithraism.

Shikoh, I don't know where you are going with the reference to Maimon. I never claimed that his views were significant to me so stick to the topic and try to stop detracting with the unnecessary sidebars.
Also I am not here to defend Christianity but from my perspective if you believe the more the merrier then the Hindus take the cake with their army of gods ranging from rats to the moon. I suspect that Islam borrowed (Chandra) the moon god from the Hindus. So that would make the Hindus first, the Christians second and Islam in dead last place. Now with the "saving his son" reference. According to the John

quote:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

, Christ was sacrificed for the world, so you and I may not perish supposedly depending on your belief.

Now that I have overwhelmed you with the facts regarding the moon god I see you have come to consider this a moot point. I will accept your deference not as a sign of defeat but as an indication of "coming to your senses".

You don't have to defend Mohammed's approval of heathen practices to me. I could care less if he had an orgy with his followers. Religion is not that important to me that I would hate or kill another human so don't try to sell me on whose religon is better than the other.

Again I will state my view with regards to the claim by both Palestainians and Jews. The land has changed hands so often dating back from 1800 ad to present that no one group can claim absolute soverign rights over another. In the centuries old tradition to who Palestine belongs, the strongest will always claim the prize. Today the Jews are the strongest, tomorrow the Iranians may do so with their oil wealth and nuclear ambitions. Do you believe the Iranians would give a rats arse about so called Arab Palestanians when the time comes that they engage the Israelis in war? No, the Palestanians plight is merely a rallying call for the enemies of Israelis and the US.

Since you wish to go the route of idiocy, let me put this to you:
You quote from teh Christian testament, but cannot give me an answer as to what I asked you to prove.
YOu misquote Yusuf Ali, and then, in self imposed blindness, try to impute now to ME words I did not say.
if you cannot understand the words "for argument's sake" then I must tell you that even if I were to buy into Jesus dying for sins--which I certaily don't..you would still be NOt saved..because that requires a person of ethics making a belief committment...Jesus does not require liars. YOu ought to concern youself less with trying to impose your nonsensical mithraic heresies upon me, and examine your ethics. For the life of me, I can't udnerstand why a googler like you would try to slip a lie past me. And now..when I come to you with Rambam..whose perspective you ought to know...you ran. Is this the way you expect to get people to buy into your trinitarian polytheism?

Shikoh, I don't know where you are going with the reference to Maimon. I never claimed that his views were significant to me so stick to the topic and try to stop detracting with the unnecessary sidebars.
Also I am not here to defend Christianity but from my perspective if you believe the more the merrier then the Hindus take the cake with their army of gods ranging from rats to the moon. I suspect that Islam borrowed (Chandra) the moon god from the Hindus. So that would make the Hindus first, the Christians second and Islam in dead last place. Now with the "saving his son" reference. According to the John

quote:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

, Christ was sacrificed for the world, so you and I may not perish supposedly depending on your belief.

Now that I have overwhelmed you with the facts regarding the moon god I see you have come to consider this a moot point. I will accept your deference not as a sign of defeat but as an indication of "coming to your senses".
.[/QUOTE]
Now as for your attack on hinduism..let me explain something to you about that religon. In its position, it views that we are all part of the ATMAN. Equality. But your mithraic construct puts jesus and God only on that level..first father and son, then god and created, then god and almost like god...no consistency. In light of hinduism, you are way behind the times.
As for what you believe re chandra..that really does not bother me in the least..for unlike you, I have done the requisite studies that demands from me the truth in respect to all religions..and I extend that respect..but not to the FOLLOWERS of FANATICAL concepts who, in order to defend their "truth" must come with lies. I see now u are accuing me of digressing. well here goes: you claimed that the Pals were not there..the land was empty and then the Jews came. I asked you for proof. I aaked you for proof of the Muslim rapes. Thus far, in LIGHT OF MY CHALLENGE TO PRODUCE YOUR PROOF (I know it does not exist), in the face of which I would produce mine--I have the reports of the crusaders themselves as to what they did..and the reports of christian chroniclers themsevles--you have not put up. Now you are trying to run saying whoever is stronger has the land? Seems you don't know whether you are running or coming.
I am following ou becauce let me put this straight..when someone lies about a citation, it is the worst form of hypocrisy..and says more about that persons ethics that any claimed belief in mithraism...

BTW: in case you have acolytes..let me be perfectly clear here> I do NOT in any way subscribe or even entertain any belief that a God would send his son to die for me...especially when that SON (no, the father, no the same) cries out: ELI, ELI, (according to you, Moon god, o moon god) why hast thou forsaken me?
Apparently God did not know what God was doing..or picknee did not know what Dadee was doing..even though they are the one and same...
I am giving you a lesson in the ridiculousness of what you tried to foist upon an intellectually greater religion that even the medieval theologians had to resort to claims of faith....they could not withstand the arguments of the rabbis or imams. And as for the pandits...they could not even touch them. And you, who don't even know the basic hebrew/aramaic coming here to lie? Get with it dude. Produce your proof. Pretty please.

quote:

Originally posted by bird:

quote:

ley me tell you want goes on at night pun the beach

Give me a preview nah before me go.

http://www.israelimages.com/files/19522.htm

Tek a preview!

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:

quote:

Originally posted by BONUS:
after much thought considering this issue and the eschatological model of dispensationalism I have to reject the idea that Palestine belongs to the Jews. The Old Testament Covenant was abrogated in A.D 70 with the destruction of the Temple. Judaism today in light of the Old Testament and New Testament is absolute idolatrous nonsense. The Partial Preterist Post Millennial view is much more credible.

In other words, Jews/Judaism is simply a manufactured ethno religious construct that was created merely as a vehicle for the self preservation of the group. It's no different than pan africanism, but unlike pan africanism being a defensive mechanism against the racism perpetuated by the west, Judaism on the other hand morphs into a purely offensive virus that thrives on ethnocentrism.

Present day Jewish claim to Palestine has no basis in history, religion, philosophy and LAW. It is out right theft, plunder and discrimination that is going on against the Palestinian people. Basic morality and ethics prove this.

That being said, since dispossession of the Jews from present day Palestine will be impractical, it follows that the only solution ought to be a one state with shared governance with all Palestinians that were dispossessed of their lands given an opportunity to return plus the market value of property lost. All this should be paid for by the Jews and the U.S.A.

Shared governance should be in the form of a bicameral system like the one in Switzerland.

On a serious note, I am happy that you finally realize the political aspirations of the Israelis. I say Israelis, because not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are the descendants of Israel. The Russians, and European converts have hijacked Israel, while some of the original children of Israel still wander in Africa and India.

I was wondering if it was Bonus or not. But I knew along that he was a rapture ready conservative Christian and loved his Jewish brothers only as potential Christians and not as Jews.

quote:

Originally posted by D2:

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:

quote:

Originally posted by BONUS:
after much thought considering this issue and the eschatological model of dispensationalism I have to reject the idea that Palestine belongs to the Jews. The Old Testament Covenant was abrogated in A.D 70 with the destruction of the Temple. Judaism today in light of the Old Testament and New Testament is absolute idolatrous nonsense. The Partial Preterist Post Millennial view is much more credible.

In other words, Jews/Judaism is simply a manufactured ethno religious construct that was created merely as a vehicle for the self preservation of the group. It's no different than pan africanism, but unlike pan africanism being a defensive mechanism against the racism perpetuated by the west, Judaism on the other hand morphs into a purely offensive virus that thrives on ethnocentrism.

Present day Jewish claim to Palestine has no basis in history, religion, philosophy and LAW. It is out right theft, plunder and discrimination that is going on against the Palestinian people. Basic morality and ethics prove this.

That being said, since dispossession of the Jews from present day Palestine will be impractical, it follows that the only solution ought to be a one state with shared governance with all Palestinians that were dispossessed of their lands given an opportunity to return plus the market value of property lost. All this should be paid for by the Jews and the U.S.A.

Shared governance should be in the form of a bicameral system like the one in Switzerland.

On a serious note, I am happy that you finally realize the political aspirations of the Israelis. I say Israelis, because not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are the descendants of Israel. The Russians, and European converts have hijacked Israel, while some of the original children of Israel still wander in Africa and India.

I was wondering if it was Bonus or not. But I knew along that he was a rapture ready conservative Christian and loved his Jewish brothers only as potential Christians and not as Jews.

D2: Point taken re bonus. But as Marc Gopin points out, the FAILURE Of genuine interreligious interaction is because most people see the other as potential converts...the Muslims do that, the Xians do that. Belying the human need to be in harmony with each other. it is for this reason I dont advocate missionary activity. As long as person is good, what does it matter how he perceives the mysteries of the universe?