quote:

Originally posted by caribj:
Mitwah me calling you a savge PPP/PYO thug who loved it everytime black old people or kids were killed in the 60s is just as deserved as you claiming that people like me were recruited to kill Indians.

I have frequently condemned African racism and PNC treatment of Indians. I do not deny that barbaric acts were perpetrated by Africans against Indians. both on a formal basis by thugs within the PNC and informally in random acts justified by the misguided need for revenge against attacks perpetrated or rumored to be perpetarted against blacks by Indians.

Now look at how you first ddeny that there wa sIndian violence against blacks. Thn you claim that such a discussion is irrelevant because it didnt occur in Wismar, even thoughall indications are that Wismar wa smotivated in revenge against those attacks. Now you try to suggest that a few random acts were committed by some Indians but that b;lacks were worse.

Well we certainly dont know which group suffered more. We know that both suffered and we know that bothw ere responsible for this suffering. We know that planned attacks were committed by thugs within the PPP, PNC and UF. And we know that informal emotional attacs were committed to avenge prior attacks.

Now you can fill your head with nonsensical notions of the "innocent virtuous Indian". But thsoe who were around and who are honest know that neither black nor Indians were innocent or virtuous.

What purpose will it serve or where will it get us to argue as to who is more violent or not violent to whom? Certain elements of Indos and Afros were agressors where they dominated and both sides had their victims. Pertaining to the discussion at hand, due to the concentration of about 3000 Indos at Wismar, the beatings, murders, rapes, looting and burning of properties which was probably motivated by jealousy since Indos were very prosperous, were on a scale of intensity, the highest degree.

To deny that some Indos did not practice racism, would be absurd.

The Wismar Massacre even though taboo for some, is still alive in the minds of many. When I visted Guyana, I see a harmony among the people working or playing together but I also observe a distrust and hate especially among many Indians and Africans. Can there ever be a multi racial party that can foster a common existence based on mutual trust and respect?

Can you beleive that this thread is now listed on Google? Wow!!!!

Check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:

What purpose will it serve or where will it get us to argue as to who is more violent or not violent to whom? ?

Then why are you trying hard to paint blacks as more violent when every one knows that both groups were?

Using GNI as evidence can you point out one black here who denies it or wishes discussion of it to be suppressed. All we ask for is it to be discussed within its context and that is both groups were quite violent.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:

What purpose will it serve or where will it get us to argue as to who is more violent or not violent to whom? ?

Then why are you trying hard to paint blacks as more violent when every one knows that both groups were?

Using GNI as evidence can you point out one black here who denies it or wishes discussion of it to be suppressed. All we ask for is it to be discussed within its context and that is both groups were quite violent.

I cannot read and comprehend for you. Enough of your nonsense.

In every discourse that you are involved with, on this BB , one cannot help observing your chronic ailment of racism. You readily accuse one of being a racist or you use your well developed art or skill of race baiting as a contrivance to throw one off the track.

In your stratagem contrived to deceive or evade the discussion at hand, you have posted a malicious, false, and defamatory statement injurious to my character when you accused me being a member of the PYO group. You either need to apologize or retract your statement.

My views are logical unlike yours. You tend to generalize and go off at a tangent. Your dishonesty is very much revealed by your inventions of arguments contrary to the topic. You are clever and often succeed in your underhanded scheme to take control of a thread and derail it.

Mitwah will not knowingly give you that power.

Here you are peddling the myth that only Indians suffered in 1964 and that there were not violent acts against blacks, making a racial argument and you wish me to either agree with your lie, or say nothing.

Whe you do this you insult the blacks folks who suffered during this period and clearly portray yourself to be a cruel and heartless, and yes, dishonest and racist person.

When you offer a balanced analysis of the violence in 1964 then you can chat. But until you do my opinion of you stands.

Now you can cry foul and open up 20 threads to that effect but its really sad that elderly black people, black women and children were killed alongside Indians in various parts of Guyana especially in 1964, yet you wish me to ignore the fcat that you refuse to talk about this.

Mitwah acknowledge that in the early 60s both Indians and Africans were violent. Much of this violence was instigated by both the PNC and the PPP, and others were in revenge for previous attacks. And that sadly innocent people on both sides were killed, injured, lost property, suffered mental scars or were forced to move against their will. I happen to be one of them so I know about which I talk.


I can only wonder what manner of person you must be that you find this task so difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:
[b]In your stratagem contrived to deceive or evade the discussion at hand,:

How have I done this.

1. Have I denied Wismar. No, and in fact said there were two Wismar events.

2. Your problems is that I told you that Indians were equally guilty of violence and that doesnt fit into your attempt to psuh your folks on a higher pedestal by claiming innocence.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:
Here you are peddling the myth that only Indians suffered in 1964 and that there were not violent acts against blacks, making a racial argument and you wish me to either agree with your lie, or say nothing.

You must very dumb. Go back and read my posts that not only blacks and Indos suffered but the entire nation. What lie did I post.

Whe you do this you insult the blacks folks who suffered during this period and clearly portray yourself to be a cruel and heartless, and yes, dishonest and racist person.

Listen idiot, I know who I am. I do not recognize you as the spoke person for Blacks. Statement of this sort is endemic to you not me.

When you offer a balanced analysis of the violence in 1964 then you can chat. But until you do my opinion of you stands.

Why don't you? Who is stopping you to start a thread. I don't care about your opinion of me.

Now you can cry foul and open up 20 threads to that effect but its really sad that elderly black people, black women and children were killed alongside Indians in various parts of Guyana especially in 1964, yet you wish me to ignore the fcat that you refuse to talk about this.

You have to be a dunce to make a statement like this. Go and read my posts again.

Mitwah acknowledge that in the early 60s both Indians and Africans were violent. Much of this violence was instigated by both the PNC and the PPP, and others were in revenge for previous attacks. And that sadly innocent people on both sides were killed, injured, lost property, suffered mental scars or were forced to move against their will. I happen to be one of them so I know about which I talk.

Sorry to learn that you were a victim. I have already acknowledge the above facts. Stop being like a mad dog chasing his tail. You will only devour yourself in the end.

If you were truly a victim, then you would agree that the decision to hold the slated celebrations on May 26th is an insensitive and not a well thought out one.

If you were 7 years old during the time of the Wismar Disturbances and not residing in Guyana, kindly explain how you were a victim.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mitwah,

I was pleasantly surprised this morning when my neighbor's daughter who came to Canada when she was 4 years old with her parents and mentioned this thread to me. Surprisingly, she said that she never knew of this Wismar disturbances because her parents never really brought it up. I wonder how many more of our children are not aware of this part of our history.

Anyway on this day 44 years ago, May 23rd, 1964

Excerpt from the Wismar Commission Report.

Saturday 23.5.64
1. At 12.05 a.m. a bomb was thrown at the house of Walter Narine at Silvertown. No one was injured.

2. Edoo's house was seen on fire in the One Mile Area.

3. At about 2.30 a.m. fire was set on the house of Cyril Ragnauth at Cholmondeley Alley.

4. At about 10.50 p.m. Mr. Toolsie Persaud, a businessman who has a timber grant at Christianburg, and his men were going to Mr. Lam's Hotel for food and accommodation. Deodat Narine, one of his employees was beaten and acid thrown on him. He jumped into the Demerara River.

5. Mr. Lam's Hotel was pelted and looted and Mr. Toolsie Persaud and his men escaped through the back yard of Mr. Lam's premises. (They hid themselves until the next day when they travelled to Georgetown. Mr. Toolsie Persaud did not mention this incident or the situation at Wismar to anyone.)

6. At 11.30 a.m. the empty house of Joseph Gaines (East Indian ) of Half Mile Wismar was set on fire.

There are currently 32 members and 100 guests on the forums.

Wow! online now 132...

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:

If you were truly a victim, then you would agree that the decision to hold the slated celebrations on May 26th is an insensitive and not a well thought out one.

If you were 7 years old during the time of the Wismar Disturbances and not residing in Guyana, kindly explain how you were a victim.[/QUOTE]


You will note that I never commented on the date except to say that its the PPP which shifted the main emphasis from Feb 23rd to May 26th.

We had to leave WCD quickly precisely because my father feared that he would come home late at night to see us as victims. He was afraid of the fate suffered by other black families on WCD would befall us and he often work at night so knew we would be especially vulnerable. There were several other cases where people returned home to burnt diown homes and there families seeking shelter from well meaning neighbors.

FYI the disturbances lasted from 1961 to 1964 with late 1963 through to 1964 being especially bad. So contray to your belief this wasnt about two incidents in Wismar in 1964.

In fcat teh Wismar Reports states that the shock of the first incident was because, while coastal Guyana was embrolied in strife Linden had remained quiet until then. The violence that occurred then was in revenge (and undoubtedly ided by the PNC) for attacks against blacks in West Berbice, ECD and WCD.

Nowe you want to make out that Wismar was an event that happened independent of other events but it had in RESPONSE to other events. If we are discussing Agricola, Lusignan and Bartica thats another topic. But violence all over Guyana especially in 1964 is quite relevant given that you camnnot sepearte violence in Wismar from violence in tain, from violence in Windsor Forest, from violence in GT from violence in Buxton and all the other places that violence occurred. The sooner you realize that the less racista nd dishonest you will look.

And if you admit that Indians were as vicious as blacks were then why are you arguing with me? We would then be both saying that Africans and Indians were violently racist, that the PPP and the PNC encouraged this, and that many good people from both sides suffered and in some cases still suffer today. And that good peoples of both races abhored violence and risk their lives to protect people of the other race from violence meted out against them by their own, thereby risking condemnation as race traitors and in turn being attacked in revenge.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: caribj,

Caribj, On the WCD, I will admit that Kamta Persaud was vicious and was a one man wrecking crew. You all must have been happy when they hung him..

You all had the police guarding you and also killing Indian people there. Now is your tuen to admit that..

quote:

Originally posted by Mitwah:
To deny that some Indos did not practice racism, would be absurd.
?

There wioll never be mutual respect until people lsiten to others and display empathy. Now if I was busily writing excuses for black brutaliyuy against Indians based on perceptions of racist treatment bny the PPP I would be wrong and you would be quite right to hang me.

Similarly your attemptb to pretend as if Wismar was aunique event unconnected to everything else that happened at the time is an insult to those blacks who did indeed suffer at the hands of Indians.

Now note that I didnt contest your belief that it was insensitive for May 26th to be celebrated for anything given the events of that day. However you need to note that its the INDIAN PPP which seems insensitive to this by emphasizing this date rather than Feb 23rd. The latter date wass selected (so it is said) because it commemorated the first attempt by Guyanese to seek independence when Cuffy and others rebelled.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramakant_p:
Caribj, On the WCD, I will admit that Kamta Persaud was vicious and was a one man wrecking crew. ..

Oh so you finally admit that some Indos attacked blacks. We are indeed making progress.

Now how do you think that honest and hard working blacks who suffered from his "wrecking crew" feel. I am sure just like thsoe who had to flee Wismar.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramakant_p:
Caribj, On the WCD, I will admit that Kamta Persaud was vicious and was a one man wrecking crew. You all must have been happy when they hung him..

You all had the police guarding you and also killing Indian people there. Now is your tuen to admit that..

And who ever got hung for all the Indians slaughtered by blacks, infact some became part of the Gvernment apparatus after 1964, is it not so. Just like Lusignan and Bartica, the criminals and their sponsors seem to have gotton off.

guyana became indendent on May 26th 1966 and that the day we celebrate.. Guyana became a republic on Fen 23th 1972 and that's the day the PNC celebrate as independence day. Republic day was not important to the PPP but Indendence day was.. Cheddi fought long and hard for guyana to be free fron the British. He even went to jail for his cause.. Little did he know that he would jump from the frying pan into the fire..

quote:

Originally posted by Ramakant_p:
guyana became indendent on May 26th 1966 and that the day we celebrate.. Guyana became a republic on Fen 23th 1972 and that's the day the PNC celebrate as independence day. Republic day was not important to the PPP but Indendence day was.. Cheddi fought long and hard for guyana to be free fron the British. He even went to jail for his cause.. Little did he know that he would jump from the frying pan into the fire..

becaaaz e' raass too stupid, he go line up wid communist and screwed all aawee.

Look at how the violence escalated....

On this day 44 years ago in our history;

Sunday May 24th, 1964

1. At 1.30 a.m. Cyril Ragnauth and his wife were injured by air-gun pellets when they opened a window to investigate a noise they heard.

2. The house of Seecowathai was set on fire.

3. At 8.40 a.m. a lighted substance was thrown on the house of Basdeo Ramkumar - a piece of tarpaulin burnt.

4. At 1.00 a.m. one Singh was found unconscious in Sand Road, Wismar.

5. At 4.55 a.m. house owned by Daniel Persaud completely destroyed. It was unoccupied.

6. At 9.17 a.m. strike at Demba called off.

7. At 6.45 p.m. building owned by Alphonso Singh set on fire.

8. At 7.30 p.m. houses owned by Charles John set on fire at One Mile area. One building destroyed, the other damaged.

9. At 9.00 p.m. the other building owned by Charles John destroyed by fire.

10. At 8.30 p.m. another attempt was made on the building owned by Gaines.

11. At 8.45 p.m. Leonard Gobin was beaten in the Silvertown area.

12. At 9.00 p.m. Sukraj of Half Mile, Wismar, was beaten.

13. At 11.00 p.m. the premises owned by Sookram at Christianburg looted and destroyed by fire.

14. At 11.20 p.m. two (2) shots were fired on Roshal Alli of Silvertown. He was hospitalised.

15. The building of David Perai set on fire.

(Excerpt from The Wismar Commission Report.)

Guyanese should spend the day of May 26 - in a solemn manner and to have very limited celebrations at this time but reflect on what has transpired on this day in our history.

For those who choose to celebrate I would suggest that they wear a black armband or place a black flag/cloth on their vehicles or homes as a mark of respect .

The excessive use of alcohol and the images of merriment could, and are likely to be, considered insensitive and offensive to the families of victims and to the thousands of Guyanese who still live with the psychological scars and trauma from the Wismar Disturbances and the ethnic cleansing that was committed on the Indo Guyanese population.

The period May 24th – May 26th should be a time for Prayers and Reflection. Guyana is in a perilous state. Only divine intervention can bring that miracle of a just and peaceful country.

The decision to have the Independence celebration on May 26th is an insensitive and an unthoughtfull one.

quote:

Originally posted by caribj:

There wioll never be mutual respect until people lsiten to others and display empathy. Now if I was busily writing excuses for black brutaliyuy against Indians based on perceptions of racist treatment bny the PPP I would be wrong and you would be quite right to hang me.

Similarly your attemptb to pretend as if Wismar was aunique event unconnected to everything else that happened at the time is an insult to those blacks who did indeed suffer at the hands of Indians.

.

Hanging you would be adharmic for me.... Anyway of all the racial disturbances in Guyana at that juncture of our history, the Wismar Massacre was, on the scale of intensity, the most extreme.
Murder, rape, arson, ethnic cleansing and intimadation had become the order of the day.

On this day 44 years ago :

Excerpt from the Wismar Commission Report:

Monday 25.5.64
1. At 12.15 a.m. the unoccupied building of Sahadeo Ram completely destroyed.
2. At 1.30 p.m. unoccupied building on Blueberry Hill set on fire.
3. At 4.05 a.m. a barber shop of William Subrian pulled down and thrown in the river.

From 7.09 a.m. until 12.43 p.m. no entry was made at Force Control concerning the events at Wismar. The last record at Wismar of a message sent to Force Control was at 5.30 a.m.

During the course of our Inquiry, counsel for the security forces suggested to several witnesses that the disturbances in the Wismar-Christianburg area on May 25th, 1964, had been "spontaneous" and had taken many people by surprise. Many witnesses confirmed that the intensity of the outbreak took them by surprise, but Mr. Hobbs, the Police Officer in charge of Wismar, gave it as his opinion that the events at Wismar had been carefully planned with such efficiency as to thwart the efforts of the security forces. The Commissioner of Police, on the other hand, opined that from subsequent reports he was sure that the outbreak had been spontaneous. This aspect of the matter will be dealt with in more detail in another chapter of this report.

Between 7 and 8 o'clock on the morning of May 25th the situation deteriorated rapidly. There was widespread violence, arson and looting. The stage was set for a day of unmitigated tragedy. At about 8.00 a.m. it was rumoured that an East Indian man had kicked an African boy. The Police subsequently investigated this but found it to be untrue. If any was needed, this was the casus belli.

Throughout the day, large numbers of East Indians sought refuge in the Wismar Police station compound - some were rescued by Police and Volunteers, others went there on their own. With the arrival of British troops at Mackenzie at 5.00 p.m. these people were ferried across to Mackenzie where they were accommodated at the trade school, sports club and Police station. Those who had been injured were treated and sent away or hospitalised at the Mackenzie Hospital according to the severity of the cases.

Excerpt from Guynaunderseige.com:
May 25th , 1964

The evacuation of Indo-Guyanese from the massacre sites at Wismar and Christainburg did not take place until the evening of May 25th.

Two river steamers were commissioned to take the first batch of 1300 Indo-Guyanese refugees to Georgetown where they were booed, jeered, and pelted with bricks by Blacks as they arrived. A Red Cross worker said of the survivors: "Few wept, but the hundreds of children appeared terrified and frightened."

Out of the 1300 that arrived, 300 found shelter with relatives while the rest slept on the concrete floor of the pier warehouse in Georgetown huddling in fear while covered with tarpaulins and rice bags.
Temporary shelter was soon set up at a factory outside Georgetown with many other refugees later being put up in predominantly Indo-Guyanese areas.

Source:

British soldiers being sent to the Wismar to keep the peace after the tragedy.