quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Whose translation am I using, pray tell? YOu are arrogantly seeking to push your error away. YOU came out in the full steam of islamophobia trying to show a defect in the QUr'an. I asked you for your proof and then in typical missionary style, you went around..tried to divert the issue by talking about yusuf ali etc.
Now here goes: the old arabs did not have degrees true. We are speaking of the words of the Quran and what they mean. YOu keep insisting without knowledge of arabic what they mean and I, as a teacher of arabic am telling you they don't The word means what it says, the quran uses it in the context of what it says. YOu decide be arbiter of what is correct and therefore came out arrogantly posting the words that mean flat. YOu still have not come with any dictionary that is accepted by arabists to show your claim
And by the way, could you tell me on any university course that uses either translation you mentioned/ And if they don't, certainly there must be a reason..that is obvious.
Perhaps there are those with BA's who write contrary to my beliefs. The problem is that academically, My PH.d trumps theirs..so I don't know what your point is. Perhaps you should concentrate on getting a b.a .student to help you read an arabic dictionary.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

quote:

Originally posted by André:
Any teenager with a bit of knowledge of the solar system can read that passage and tell that it's a nancy story. Only narrow minded people who try to justify everything in their "Holy Book" as being factual would attempt to make some truth out of these stories. Symbolism = another fancy word for nancy stories. Since Jesus spoke Aramaic and you are not fluent in that language then you are depending on translations when you study the word of the Christian God and that would make your research null and void (according to your harebrained theory about translation). People who are not ready for primetime use the "lost in translation" defence. Lame. :-))

In case you did not know it, reread my stuff...ARAMAIC is one of the languages of which I have a working knowledge. secondly, there is NO extant m/s of the NT in aramaic, so it is of no use in christianity.
The translation idea..again, i ask if it is of no use, then why do MA and PH. D students have to master the languages of the scripture?
I gave you two examples, I notice you have no comeback except to talk about harebrained theories, In case you did not know, your position would make sense if YOU have knowledge of the languages in question and can show that there is little lost in translation. Until you can do that, you are simply trying to delude me into thinking you have some expertise.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
I know your strategy and it is sickening. Ali was NOT a scholar of QUran or Islam. he was a british trained lawyer, who also had a ba from oxford in greek classics.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Don't play that game..his being a principal of a canadina college or whatever had simply to do with his british qualifications and his sterling character. I am not concerned with that...but his rating as an Islamic scholar which was NIL. But that is besides the point and tangential to the meaning of Dahaha.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Don't play that game..his being a principal of a canadina college or whatever had simply to do with his british qualifications and his sterling character. I am not concerned with that...but his rating as an Islamic scholar which was NIL. One can be a good human being, but that does not necc. translate to being an erudite islamicist. But that is besides the point and tangential to the meaning of Dahaha.

quote:

Originally posted by André:
It's also old news that the current version of the Koran has many contradictions...

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Not to people who knows what they are talking about. The current Arabic Qur'an is the same as the one that Muhammad left and there are no contradictions or changes. That is a fact no matter how you would wish to believe otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by André:

yeah right, after Uthman butcher it up and bun up all de odda versions :-))

did y'all find de verses ofthe rajam dat gone missin yet? ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Demerara_Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by André:
It's also old news that the current version of the Koran has many contradictions...

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Not to people who knows what they are talking about. The current Arabic Qur'an is the same as the one that Muhammad left and there are no contradictions or changes. That is a fact no matter how you would wish to believe otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by André:

yeah right, after Uthman butcher it up and bun up all de odda versions :-))

did y'all find de verses ofthe rajam dat gone missin yet? ;-)

Again, there is comprehension-challenged issue to grasp the difference between compiled and copied:

1. The authentic Qur'an compiled by Hadrath Zaid, under the directions of Hadrat Abu Bakar is one and only version available in ARABIC.

2. The Qur'an compiled under the directions of Hadrat Abu Bakar was protected and preserved by Hadrat Uthman when he ordered that copies of the original Qur’an be made.

3. There is a HUGE difference between who compiled the current Qur'an and who copied the original Qur’an to preserved/protected its authenticity.

Compiled the original Qur’an == Hadrath Zaid, under the directions of Hadrat Abu Bakar

Copied the original Qur’an == Hadrat Uthman


Succinct Background.

Hadrat Abu Bakr, was entrusted to compile works for the Qur'an, and he charged Hadrat Zaid with the duties. Nothing was recorded as authentic until all of the various sources were unquestionable verified that they all are the same. Consequently, the first complete, verified and authentic version of the Qur'an was produced in Arabic.

The Qur'an that exists today is the precise copy of the Qur'an which was compiled by Hadrat Zaid under the directions from Hadrat Abu Bakar – and copied by Hadrat Uthman.

Thus the Qur’an is preserved and remained unaltered throughout the ages -- up to current time -- meaning as this comment is written – Thursday, September 06, 2007.

quote:

Originally posted by André:
maybe you could help dem search fuh dem Rajam verses dat gone missin cause it seems like dem wasnt too good at xeroxin

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:


Bai, nothing is missing. Don't take the ahadiths over the Qur'an. See what the Qur'an says for itself. See below.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:


Bai, nothing is missing. Don't take the ahadiths over the Qur'an. See what the Qur'an says for itself. See below.

many things and practices that muslims do today are derived from the hadiths. Yet the hadiths are weak/strong ... some good some bad. Cant keep up with it. But it surely used in an deliberate or convenience manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
many things and practices that muslims do today are derived from the hadiths. Yet the hadiths are weak/strong ... some good some bad. Cant keep up with it. But it surely used in an deliberate or convenience manner.

quote:

Originally posted by Joan:
Argy, I can't keep up with this debate and am getting a headache with all this back and forth, going around in circles, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Joan:
Argy, I can't keep up with this debate and am getting a headache with all this back and forth, going around in circles, etc.

Well, for starters, it began as contradictions in the Bible but Dre had to inject his special love for Islam by changing the subject to contradictions in the Qur'an and now it is three pages later. Discussions on Islam always generatee lots of interest. Islam attracts. :))

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

They may all be nancy stories to get good out of people. When they are used to justify hurting others, then we should all take a stand against it. That is what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by limer:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Joan:
Argy, I can't keep up with this debate and am getting a headache with all this back and forth, going around in circles, etc.

Well, for starters, it began as contradictions in the Bible but Dre had to inject his special love for Islam by changing the subject to contradictions in the Qur'an and now it is three pages later. Discussions on Islam always generatee lots of interest. Islam attracts. :))

..and that's the absolute truth!..
look a JG's thread on Christian songs etc. ..been going for weeks if not more... try post hadiths or ayahs here daily...heheh ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
then you may be doing/practicing something that is not ordained by the quran ... so it should be consider unislamic .... there is no holiness in religious traditions. Seems to me more like religious indoctrination or dogma.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by André:
maybe you could help dem search fuh dem Rajam verses dat gone missin cause it seems like dem wasnt too good at xeroxin

Bai, nothing is missing. Don't take the ahadiths over the Qur'an. See what the Qur'an says for itself. See below.

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Qur'an 15:9

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. Qur'an 4:82

وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءكُم مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. Qur'an 2:23

فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ

But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot-... Qur'an 2:24


So gwan suh wid yuh rajam nonsense :))