quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

Yep, I studied with bin baaz for a while. A nice bedouin, but a pure literalist. WHich presents a problem...he was from the desert and for him, literal meant what his people's language meant. He had studied simply by what he heard from his teachers of like mind, and had a vast memory. His fellow scholars laughed at him for this issue. Don't forget he was blind, and had never gone to secular school.
(

the earth is flat for him.

each one of those arabic words means flat ( no contradictions with the original arabic words here) ..... early muslims did believe that the earth is flat. Now that they know it is not flat they now interpret it differently.[/QUOTE]

NO. I just showed that they don't. But yes, you are right, the MAJORITY of medievalists, arab or non-arab felt that the earth was flat and therefore forced their understandings on the readings. Instead of letting the Q speak for itself. This is why I often talk of the Q NOT being allowed to speak for itself.
English as we know is a language culled from several others and as such has its limitations. Arabic on the other hand, like german, is a language that formed the source for many others and is extremely rich...to the point where, despite its age, one can still make new words AND BE UNDERSTOOD BY THOSE WHO KNOW HOW THE LANGUAGE IS STRUCTURED (the same as in german). So once again...show me how the words mean precisely flat.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

Even if I were to..for argument's sake...go along with the idea that flatness is one of the possible meanings...explain where you got "dahaha" to mean flat, and could you please let me know the reference as this would severely impact on classical and modern arabic. It would mean a total rereading of the classiacl poetry.
That being said, don't forget that people often force their "knowledge" into reading a document. I am not denying a medieval arab would have glossed over it. But a medieval iraqi/andalusian, with his knowledge of science, would have focused upon it.

so we have classical arabic .. modern arabic .... cool. We can make it up... add/subtract as time progresses. For centuries muslims, the knowledgeable and the historians, claimed the earth is flat based on the quran.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
. So once again...show me how the words mean precisely flat.

see my last post on the previous page

You are evading my question. The quran is classsical arabic. I am asking you even in classical arabic to show me where those words are given as meaning only flat. That is rather simple, is it not. Let me also give you references: lane poole, since I assume you don't really know arabic..that is one of the world's classics by a westerner. And yes, I will reluctantly accept what the dictionary says.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
You are evading my question. The quran is classsical arabic. I am asking you even in classical arabic to show me where those words are given as meaning only flat. That is rather simple, is it not. Let me also give you references: lane poole, since I assume you don't really know arabic..that is one of the world's classics by a westerner. And yes, I will reluctantly accept what the dictionary says.

you are going around in circles.

Have you heard of Ibn Rushd? of Ibn Jibr? Ibn Sina? Your statement about the Muslims all claiming the earth is flat is wrong. WOrk that ploy with a Muslim who does not know his religion. When you say Muslims have...and imply consensus, I will press you..and do read up on those three above before you make claims that are patently false.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Have you heard of Ibn Rushd? of Ibn Jibr? Ibn Sina? Your statement about the Muslims all claiming the earth is flat is wrong. WOrk that ploy with a Muslim who does not know his religion. When you say Muslims have...and imply consensus, I will press you..and do read up on those three above before you make claims that are patently false.

muslims from early centuries and their teaching said that the earth is flat.

I still ask you about the names I gave. ALL early scientists tried to prove the earth was flat. But since we are going there, and trying to single out the muslims, let us do that. Find me the equivalent of the word "dahaha" in ANY ABRAHAMIC scripture for the earth...and let us not forget that it was the same muslim scientists that provided the maps that columbus used to made a vogage that worked on the premise of an oval earth. Muslims. Whose education was in the Qur'an and science. At the same time that their christian counterparts were deeming as heretics anyone who said the earth was round. I wonder...perhaps they did not understand Dahaha, madadnaha, sutihat?

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
I still ask you about the names I gave. ALL early scientists tried to prove the earth was flat. But since we are going there, and trying to single out the muslims, let us do that. Find me the equivalent of the word "dahaha" in ANY ABRAHAMIC scripture for the earth...and let us not forget that it was the same muslim scientists that provided the maps that columbus used to made a vogage that worked on the premise of an oval earth. Muslims. Whose education was in the Qur'an and science. At the same time that their christian counterparts were deeming as heretics anyone who said the earth was round. I wonder...perhaps they did not understand Dahaha, madadnaha, sutihat?

talk about making something complicated ... we are talking about the word ... the arabic word ... dahala .. in the quran.

Precisely. And the word has a meaning. I am asking for that meaning. Not only that..but also making the claim that there is no other word in the Abrahamic group of scriptures that is its equivalent.
WHen modern Muslim astronomists focused on the classical meaning, they were astounded. Admittedly, perhaps they were moreso because of religious fervor than genuine linguistic appreciation. But still...since you brought up the meaning of flat, and are being challenged, the onus is on you to prove your point...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Precisely. And the word has a meaning. I am asking for that meaning. Not only that..but also making the claim that there is no other word in the Abrahamic group of scriptures that is its equivalent.
WHen modern Muslim astronomists focused on the classical meaning, they were astounded. Admittedly, perhaps they were moreso because of religious fervor than genuine linguistic appreciation. But still...since you brought up the meaning of flat, and are being challenged, the onus is on you to prove your point...

what is there to prove? the quran uses the word. I guess the quran was wrong to use the word.

what is there to prove? the quran uses the word. I guess the quran was wrong to use the word.[/QUOTE]
Now your argument is getting into game playing. The issue is not on the Qur'anic usage of the word. The issue is what it means. YOu are the one who claimed it means flat. The onus is on you to prove it. By the simplest of acts: by providing the meanings from a classical dictionary. that is all.
I am a difficult person on whom to try polemic strategies...especially when simplicity rules: and nothing can be simpler: find a dict., find the root and the word and I promise to admit the Quran is false if you can support your contention.

the earth is flat for him.[/QUOTE]
Actually, and this is a problem I have with those who eagerly rush to cite. Bin Baz did take that position initially. But then his peers argued with him. IN the end when it was pointed out to him that there are words that are unequivocally indicating a spheroid/oval shape, he relented and give his stance as "tawaqquf"..he did not know enough on this idea. But polemists eagerly overlook that.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

Now your argument is getting into game playing. The issue is not on the Qur'anic usage of the word. The issue is what it means. YOu are the one who claimed it means flat. The onus is on you to prove it. By the simplest of acts: by providing the meanings from a classical dictionary. that is all.
I am a difficult person on whom to try polemic strategies...especially when simplicity rules: and nothing can be simpler: find a dict., find the root and the word and I promise to admit the Quran is false if you can support your contention.

I guess Pickthal...Yusufali should be consider blasphemous!!!! as I said the quran used the word. Then take it out if it is not so.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

Now your argument is getting into game playing. The issue is not on the Qur'anic usage of the word. The issue is what it means. YOu are the one who claimed it means flat. The onus is on you to prove it. By the simplest of acts: by providing the meanings from a classical dictionary. that is all.
I am a difficult person on whom to try polemic strategies...especially when simplicity rules: and nothing can be simpler: find a dict., find the root and the word and I promise to admit the Quran is false if you can support your contention.

I guess Pickthal...Yusufali should be consider blasphemous!!!! as I said the quran used the word. Then take it out if it is not so.

This is getting ridiculous. And I know you are too intelligent for that. We are not talkkng about YA and Pickthall. we are talking about YOU making a claim that you cannot substantiate with lexical proof. ALi and Pickthall were translating based on their backgrounds..Ali was a greek classicist and his language is amazingly equivocal. Pickthall..I don't know about. But my point is the WORD in the QUran that YOU claim means flat. Such a claim necessitates lexical certitude. And thus far, you are running from it. Man up and admit it or stop playing this transparent game.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
This is getting ridiculous. And I know you are too intelligent for that. We are not talkkng about YA and Pickthall. we are talking about YOU making a claim that you cannot substantiate with lexical proof. ALi and Pickthall were translating based on their backgrounds..Ali was a greek classicist and his language is amazingly equivocal. Pickthall..I don't know about. But my point is the WORD in the QUran that YOU claim means flat. Such a claim necessitates lexical certitude. And thus far, you are running from it. Man up and admit it or stop playing this transparent game.

Ali and Pickthall and the likes are fraud!!! is that what you are saying? Are you saying that you are better than these fellas?

ok, here is your shot. The quran uses the word dahala. Now, according to you what does it mean?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tuco,

I am not saying they are frauds. I am saying that you said that DAHAHA (by the way, note the spelling)..means flat. and once again, I am asking you to prove it.
YA, MP and all those KNEW the earth was not flat...and therefore they could freely say that they said, I ASSUME, because like Kaz, they knew the context. But I note that you are still fooling around defensively..it is not a good defence. The onus is not on me to provide proof..because I have already told you what it means. the onus is on you to show me it means flat. Once again, that ought to be so easy since u claimed knowledge. That is what happens when you take stuff off websites that are created by hate mongers. When you take their material you assume responsibility. Prove your point. They do not expect to be challenged since they put their stuff.
Do I know more than those guys? Even though the question is not pertinent, Iwill say that in MY FIELD I do. MP was I think a romance language specialist, and YA a lawyer and greek classicist. My specialty is in reliigon...so I would logically know more in that area. Yet, that is unimportant. Since my area is ISLMAIC law, language is indeed my forte. WHich is why I am so adamant about what the word means. Again: prove your point.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
I am not saying they are frauds. I am saying that you said that DAHAHA (by the way, note the spelling)..means flat. and once again, I am asking you to prove it.
YA, MP and all those KNEW the earth was not flat...and therefore they could freely say that they said, I ASSUME, because like Kaz, they knew the context. But I note that you are still fooling around defensively..it is not a good defence. The onus is not on me to provide proof..because I have already told you what it means. the onus is on you to show me it means flat. Once again, that ought to be so easy since u claimed knowledge. That is what happens when you take stuff off websites that are created by hate mongers. When you take their material you assume responsibility. Prove your point. They do not expect to be challenged since they put their stuff.
Do I know more than those guys? Even though the question is not pertinent, Iwill say that in MY FIELD I do. MP was I think a romance language specialist, and YA a lawyer and greek classicist. My specialty is in reliigon...so I would logically know more in that area. Yet, that is unimportant. Since my area is ISLMAIC law, language is indeed my forte. WHich is why I am so adamant about what the word means. Again: prove your point.

I like how you say I pull stuff off websites ... and that you all knowledgeable in all islmaic matters ... lol. I guess my studies went for channa ...lol. Way to go.

Once again, you tell me what the word mean and why did the quran uses that word ... along with the other words. And it seems your message is that Ali/Pickthal etc cannot be trusted because they are not 100 % accurate.

Aragorn" I will be straight forward here. I do resent what you are attempting to do as it is absolutely unethical, and I expected more from you.
YOu are trying to put your onus onto me? YOu are talking of studies? If you had truly studied, then you would have had NO problem providing me the meaing of the word. Instead, you mightily proclaimed what the word supposedly means to Kaz. That gave the impression you know arabic. But if you don't then there is only one place you could have obtained that from. Remember, I do research. And I am awere of the websites out there.
U keep trying to divert the argument to others. I keep forcing you back to what the issue is. I don't care about what others say. YOU made a claim, you went into the document and told us what words mean. YOu were challenged. YOu have to prove..the proof is one the claimant. I know what the word means and have, If i may remind you, ad nauseam, explained it in an earlier post. YOU have the onus of proving me wrong, i.e. that it means only flat. Once you can do that, you will have won the day. I hold that the Quran uses the word aptly and beautifully. ANd that it does NOT mean flat. One proves not a negative. YOU made the outrageous claim. YOu prove it.
Remember: I am onto all the strategies of debate..and yours is transparent. You are in a corner and instead of admitting your gaffe, are trying to transfer your burden. Does not work with me.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Aragorn" I will be straight forward here. I do resent what you are attempting to do as it is absolutely unethical, and I expected more from you.
YOu are trying to put your onus onto me? YOu are talking of studies? If you had truly studied, then you would have had NO problem providing me the meaing of the word. Instead, you mightily proclaimed what the word supposedly means to Kaz. That gave the impression you know arabic. But if you don't then there is only one place you could have obtained that from. Remember, I do research. And I am awere of the websites out there.
U keep trying to divert the argument to others. I keep forcing you back to what the issue is. I don't care about what others say. YOU made a claim, you went into the document and told us what words mean. YOu were challenged. YOu have to prove..the proof is one the claimant. I know what the word means and have, If i may remind you, ad nauseam, explained it in an earlier post. YOU have the onus of proving me wrong, i.e. that it means only flat. Once you can do that, you will have won the day. I hold that the Quran uses the word aptly and beautifully. ANd that it does NOT mean flat. One proves not a negative. YOU made the outrageous claim. YOu prove it.
Remember: I am onto all the strategies of debate..and yours is transparent. You are in a corner and instead of admitting your gaffe, are trying to transfer your burden. Does not work with me.

I didnt talk about Kaz anywhere within this topic. ... I am saying that the quran uses arabic words that were translated and means flat. You are telling me that all these fellas that translated the words didnt know better. This leaves one to believe that you are more educated than these fellas. Your early century muslims historian also said that the earth is flat.

What do I have to prove to you again? The origination and meaning of these words? I cant make up new meaning as time goes by. I cant rewrite these books. You are telling me I am wrong, however you still didnt prove me wrong. So where we are? Keep your opinion to yourself. I do not debate opinion. I dont care where you study, I did the same across 4 different continent. And as I said it dont matter. I learn some of the best things in life from folks who didnt went to universities or college. Keep in mind I have not criticize nor condemn any religion nor practices to date on this forum, because I know there is two side to every coin.

You being the all knowledgeable, you tell me what is the meaning of the word as the quran uses it.

Read your posts earlier. IN your zeal to malign the quran you now suffer from amnesia. read what i said earlier. Read what you posted. Yes, I am more qualified than those translators for a simple reason: they are known for their translation not for anyting else. YOU made a calim and are playing the typical missionary game of stalling and running. I know the meaning. I explained it. How many times do i have to tell you that? Are you within the Quranic category of summum, bukmun, umyun? If you are not, you would realise you have to, for all the running you are doing, prove to me what Dahaha means ( a word you can't even spell). The lesson you ought to have learned by now, since I will not waste time until you come with your researched meaning, it that don't talk about language unless you know it. YOu resorted to the hate mongering websites and fell pawn to it. Ans what was the result? YOu are being asked ad nauseam to provide evidence for your claim. Now you are claiming refuge behind two translators. whereas initially you came with individual words to show what they meant. That might have washed with some. But I know the language. I taught it. I teach it. And I am having fun as you try to hide the fact that you were just being polemic and now, when challenged, you can't put up a logical defence.
For the umpteenth time: SHow the meaning of dahaha. Forget the others. YOU who came and spelled out each word and supposed meaning, show your proof. As one scripture says "Provide your proof if you are telling the truth."