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Elite Member Location: Homeless in New York, Lil ABC dropout!
Registered:: March 22, 1999
Posts: 24114
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Posted
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Member Registered:: March 21, 2007
Posts: 2275
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Posted
Interesting comment: "We don't consider ourselves an environmental or socially responsible fund," says Monem Salam, Amana's director of Islamic investing.
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
Article is flawed..although this is not the problem of the reporter. Riba is usury, not interest.
I think Monem's statement was contextualixed, because Amana does focus on the ethics of environment etc....but his statement as reported, does not show this... |
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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Posted
Please expound, prof.... Here is mirriam webs definition... USURY: 1 archaic : interest 2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates 3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money Who defines what is exorbitant or unconscionable? You? Me? Bernanke? or Bush? Does the definition not imply that interest is a 'subset' of usury? Reminds me of what I heard once..."come onn!. Is jus a lil drink. Is not Like ah drunk!" :-) |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
The merriam webster's dictionary definition is unusual for a modern understanding, hence it puts the word as "archaic".
but in the Q, the description is "ida'aafan muda'affa"..added twice over. This is loansharking...and we know that the idea was to enslave the debtor. The idea of interest on the other hand is based on costs of administration, inflation. The ottomans set it at a 15% max. The early Muslims differentiated between "riba al fadl" and riba al nasiya..all pointing out that the matter is not one that can be simplistically defined as "interest" as do most modern tradiitionalists. This is why in Egypt, there was a rethink of the matter. There are several articles on line if u visit: www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/default.html |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Imad al dean's article on the website is excellent.
The question: how come the ulama have made a blunder in general? The answer: they forgot something rather simple: that when words are used in terminology, they cease to have their lexical, literal meaning in many cases. This is in every language to the best of my knowledge. Yet, they define 'riba" by "addition of any sort". Yes, this is literal. But why did they not study the history and social conditions? Why did God take time to say "ida'afan muda'fa? Why did the Ottomans, later jurists, allow 15%? Why do we rely on medievalists who know nothing of the concept of inflation in modern banking to dictate the meaning of the word? Why are we transposing desert commodities such as sheep etc into fiat money transactions? If we stick to literal translations, then we have a problem: the word "nikah" means "sexual intercourse" Yet, no one accuses a husband/wife of being a sinner if during the marriage, they occasionally don't have carnal relations...my point is that literalness as a basis is NEVER a good explanation for any term... |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
When a Muslim talks about "sin stocks" he does not only refer to alcohol and tobacco, but to any stock that is inherently problematic..meaning that any environmentally bad or socially bad stock is "sinful". One wishes that these guys would be careful when spouting off...
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Senior Member Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10235
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Makes the 6% nowadays look like a walk in the park. |
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Senior Member Registered:: February 28, 2005
Posts: 10440
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Our holy Prophet said that there will come a time when usury will so wide spread that it will be very difficult to escape it, the dust will ultimately get to us even if we try all our best to keep away.
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Elite Member Location: Homeless in New York, Lil ABC dropout!
Registered:: March 22, 1999
Posts: 24114
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Posted
This is why we have a mortgage crisis right now.
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Senior Member Registered:: February 28, 2005
Posts: 10440
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the end result of riba this is loss. |
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Member Registered:: March 21, 2007
Posts: 2275
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the 6% interest? |
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Senior Member Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10235
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Posted
The ARM and the zero down ones
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
Good point. The Ottoman figure was in a time of rampant inflation..they were at war...and I wonder if they were undergoing the same thing like we are now.... |
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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The early Muslims pointed out this? Where? Can you elaborate, please? The 2 different type of riba mentioned above is addressed by all the tafsirs I've read. Islamic rules are not merely based on technicalities but on sound concepts and principles. Is one willing to declare war with Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) on the basis of this modern day disagreement? |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
Was Ibn Abbas not the one to allegedly come up with this distinction?
Is he not an early muslim? I agree with your statement re sound concepts ...as long as one puts them into their time and space setting. The law is "if the reason for a rule is no longer valid, so too the rule is no longer valid. "idha batala sabab, batala al hukm). One is saying that MODERN interest is in no way the same as the qur'anic riba..so there is nothing to declare a war about... |
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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For my own education, can u be more explicit on Ibn Abbas's (RA) distinction? ...much appreciated. |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
No problem....check my posting on the website earlier provided. I gave a breakdown there.
Fadl would seem to be with commodities...two bags rice for one bag...and there is dispute among the scholars now about that too. In the arab world, where at the time of legislation, barley was barley, and oats were oats, this would have been a clear case of "riba." in today's society however, with rice..basmati vs. guyana bhusi...one is clearly superior to the other...so there would be EXPLOITATION to give one bag basmati for one bag bhusi. THis is what I mean by the idea of interest/riba having to be very carefully researched before we rule on what is right and what is wrong. I feel that the rates charged by the credit card companies are clearly usurious...which is why i make sure I pay my bill on time (BTW: for those of you who are regular payers and missed one payment...you can try brazening your way and NOT paying the interest...I missed a payment once and the guy thought that I was refusing to pay because of religious reasons...so they simply waived the interest charge. I actually was refusing to pay because I had not rec'd the email notification in time). |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
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Senior Member Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10235
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Posted
sometimes if yuh ask nicely, thet wudd waive de interest and even de late fee. Dem will tell yuh dat theh is duin it caas yuh recard is good.
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
Correctamundo...I had that. ONce, some joker tried to be nasty....so I asked to speak to his supervisor. That settled it.
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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Ayy prof...I asked for the Ibn Abbas's distinction you cited...ah didn' see any on the source you indicated... |
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Senior Member Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12153
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Posted
Riba al fadl: when you exchange a commodity (x1) for its like (x2) by giving more of x1 for x2. that is "riba of preference". Riba al nasi'a: when you delay the payment of something by adding an increment to the late payment in such a quantity that it is called "riba." That last phrase is MY addition, and cannot be attributed to Ibn A. Despite all that I said, I think that the way the Islamic banks are structured, there is no way they would encounter the modern fannie mae crisis. There is no such thing as a "0" down payment in the Islamic system as used now in NA. For those of you interested in Islamic investments, I advise you to check out Amana. It is always going higher.. |
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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Thank you, Prof.
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Elite Member Location: Homeless in New York, Lil ABC dropout!
Registered:: March 22, 1999
Posts: 24114
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Posted
Do they pay dividends? |
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Member Registered:: August 04, 2005
Posts: 2910
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Posted
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