When Muslims become Christians

here's a widespread belief that the penalty for leaving Islam is death - hence, perhaps, the killing of a British teacher last week. But Shiraz Maher believes attitudes may be softening.

Ziya Meral's parents disowned him when he converted from Islam to Christianity.

"They said 'go away, you're not our son.' They told people I died in an accident rather than having the shame of their son leaving Islam."

Born and raised in Turkey, he decided to convert to Christianity after moving to university. He knew telling his parents would be a difficult moment even though they're not particularly observant Muslims, and he planned to break the news to them gently.

In the end, events overtook him. Before heading back to Turkey for the holidays, Ziya briefly visited a Christian summer camp where he was filmed eating a bowl of spaghetti.

The first his parents heard of his conversion was when they saw Ziya on the national news being described as "an evil missionary" intent on "brainwashing" Turkish children.

His parents decided they would rather tell people that he was dead than acknowledge he was a Christian. And Ziya, who now lives in the UK, is not alone in this experience.

Sophia, which is not her real name, faced similar pressures when she decided to become a Christian.

Coming from a Pakistani background but living in east London, 28-year-old Sophia spoke about the extreme cultural pressures her family put her under.

"They kept saying: 'The punishment is death, do you know the punishment is death?'"

In the end, Sophia ran away from home. Her mother tracked her down and turned up at her baptism.

"I got up to get baptised, that's when my mother got up, ran to the front and tried to pull me out of the water.

"My brother was really angry. He reacted and phoned me on my mobile and just said: 'I'm coming down to burn that church.'"

For Sophia and Ziya, a lot of the prejudice they faced seemed to be borne out of cultural ideas, which are particularly ingrained in the South Asian community relating to notions of family honour

But it's too easy to say this is just a cultural problem. Dig a little deeper and you find that there is a theological argument which advocates the death penalty for apostates, which has serious implications for British society.

Last week, British teacher Daud Hassan Ali, 64, was shot dead in Somalia. His widow, Margaret Ali, said her husband was targeted by Islamists who "believe it is ok to kill any man who was born into Islam and left the faith".

Those renouncing their faith for atheism or agnosticism are viewed in a similar way to those who adopt another faith.

A poll conducted by the Policy Exchange last year suggested that over a third of young British Muslims believe that the death penalty should apply for apostasy.

Until recently, I would have shared that view, but since personally rejecting extremism myself, I've been re-examining the issues which I once regarded as conclusive.

Discretion

I was staggered to learn that the Quran does not say anything about punishing apostates and that its proponents use two hadiths instead to support their view. Hadiths are the recorded traditions and sayings of the Prophet which, in addition to the Quran, provide an additional source of Islamic law.

The hadiths which relate to apostasy are linguistically ambiguous and open to interpretation. Distinguished scholars told me that the hadiths actually speak about a death penalty for treason, not apostasy. And even then, they stressed the punishment is discretionary.


I believe the classical law of apostasy in Islam is wrong and based on a misunderstanding
Usama Hassan
Scientist and imam

Dr Hisham Hellyer is a Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies at University of Oxford, and has researched classical Islamic law.

He believes the death penalty punishment is no longer applicable and should be suspended under certain circumstances.

Usama Hassan, a Cambridge-educated scientist and an imam, goes further and says the classical scholars were wrong in how they interpreted the Quran. He is unequivocal in denouncing those who advocate the death penalty.

"I believe the classical law of apostasy in Islam is wrong and based on a misunderstanding of the original sources, because the Quran and Hadith don't actually talk about a death penalty for apostasy."

Last year Egypt's Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, unequivocally told the Washington Post that the death penalty for apostasy simply no longer applies. It provoked a flurry of debate in Egypt and the wider Middle East.

Traitor

The idea of killing apostates has become a resurgent theme in recent years, a fact closely-related to the increasing politicisation of Islam since 9/11.

It epitomises the "us and them" mentality felt by many Muslims between themselves and the West. And there's an uncomfortable conclusion to all this.


Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam
Shiraz Maher

If there is a death penalty for treason, then who defines what treason is?

Earlier this year a group of men from Birmingham pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to kidnap and behead a British Muslim solider because they regarded him as a traitor. Joining the British army was to them treason against Islam.

So while the debate surrounding one aspect of apostasy continues, it is simultaneously throwing up an entirely new series of challenges around other issues including what should be considered treason against Islam.

When Ziya talked about what happened to him, he was just finishing a report on the experiences of apostates, called No Place to Call Home. He had interviewed 28 apostates in six different countries as part of a year-long research project.

His report found that although the death penalty is rarely applied through the courts, apostates still face gross and wide-ranging human rights abuses at the hands of the state, radical groups and local communities."

It seems that Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam, between those who argue for a progressive form of Islam and those who argue for more dogmatic interpretations.

Attitudes to apostasy may be a useful barometer for judging where it's headed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7355515.stm

Did you read this which was below the same article? I noticed it was omitted from your post (:-) lol!!!

quote:

I was also born into Islam but have since become a Christian. My family never passed any such penalty on me or any of my siblings who had converted. We are still very much part of the family and never taken as outcast, which leads to believe that the penalty is more a Middle East cultural believe than Islamic law. I am from Nigeria and in fact from a very strong Islamic community, rather than pass any sure 'Death penalty' they are looking for ways to lure us back to Islam which is definitely not possible again.
OD Balogun, Grays

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
Did you read this which was below the same article? I noticed it was omitted from your post (:-) lol!!!

quote:

I was also born into Islam but have since become a Christian. My family never passed any such penalty on me or any of my siblings who had converted. We are still very much part of the family and never taken as outcast, which leads to believe that the penalty is more a Middle East cultural believe than Islamic law. I am from Nigeria and in fact from a very strong Islamic community, rather than pass any sure 'Death penalty' they are looking for ways to lure us back to Islam which is definitely not possible again.
OD Balogun, Grays

that was not in the article .... that was someone comment about the article ... and make sure to read the others too ...lol. Anything for not taking the blame ... right? lol ...

You posted the link!

The link includes article plus comments all on the same page. If you cutting and pasting, you should do the whole page, not be selective (:-))

Unless your purpose is to be selective (:-))

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
You posted the link!

The link includes article plus comments all on the same page. If you cutting and pasting, you should do the whole page, not be selective (:-))

Unless your purpose is to be selective (:-))

bai the article was posted in its wholeness. I like your style ,.. always trying to soften the blows lol

banna, yyu post the link! next time, get a better link!(:-))

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
banna, yyu post the link! next time, get a better link!(:-))

is this a better link .... screw and make a million ...lol

Thursday 15 May 2008
KENYA: Muslim clerics declare war on condoms

GARISSA, 12 May 2008 (PlusNews) - Muslim leaders in Kenya's North Eastern Province have resolved to campaign against the promotion of condoms as a means of preventing HIV.

The decision was made after a recent meeting on the theme of "Islam and Health", attended by more than 60 Muslim scholars and teachers in the provincial capital of Garissa.

"A lot of money is being wasted to poison our community ... a huge amount of money is spent on buying condoms, buying immorality," Sheikh Mohamud Ali, of Garissa district, told IRIN/PlusNews.

The leaders agreed to actively preach against the use and public promotion of condoms as a strategy to contain the pandemic and prevent pregnancy. They also agreed to oppose the distribution of condoms in villages and educational institutions across the northeast.

"We are not opposed to the Ministry of Health's campaigns to fight HIV/AIDS, but we are concerned that they are using the wrong way, which is not acceptable to our tradition and religion," Ali said. "We cannot use the same means to fight these problems all over the country, and we must be involved in the campaigns and our suggestions accepted."

The clerics further demanded the closure of bars in the northeast and asked the government to suspend the licensing of any new bars. According to the clerics, local bars and "video dens" screened pornographic movies that were contributing to sexually transmitted infections. The widespread abuse of drugs was another factor: a locally grown mild stimulant, "khat", is popular in the region.

The leaders expressed their view that the best way for the youth to avoid HIV was through the observance of Islamic teachings such as fasting, regular prayer and shunning extramarital affairs. They advised men to avoid looking at women, who should dress modestly.

Misconceptions abound

Abdi Welli, a taxi driver in Garissa, told IRIN/PlusNews he agreed with the clerics that condoms should be banned. He believed the widespread myth that condoms and contraceptives were laced with the HI virus. "We know the condoms are not safe ... if you want to contract the virus that causes AIDS, then use [a condom]," he said. "After all, we have heard in the past that the Western world is using the condom to eliminate Africans, and Muslims in particular."

Discussing sexual issues is traditionally taboo, which has led to widespread ignorance about HIV and AIDS in the northeast. Although HIV prevalence rates are still among the lowest in the country - 1.4 percent compared to the national average of 5.1 percent, according to Kenya's National AIDS Control Council - the region also has the lowest uptake of condoms, and health workers say this is contributing to new HIV infections. Many traders refuse to stock condoms on the grounds that they promote immorality, so their availability is limited.

Health workers have expressed concern that the decision by the Muslim leaders will damage anti-AIDS efforts in the region. Provincial Medical Officer Dr Osman Warfa, who attended the meeting, said condoms were critical to the fight against the pandemic.

"It will certainly give some youths an excuse to avoid the use of condoms, and this will endanger many of them," he told IRIN/PlusNews.

Free condoms will remain available at government health centres in the region.

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportID=78160

quote:

Originally posted by Chief:

quote:

I was staggered to learn that the Quran does not say anything about punishing apostates and that its proponents use two hadiths instead to support their view. Hadiths are the recorded traditions and sayings of the Prophet which, in addition to the Quran, provide an additional source of Islamic law.

the problem here is if you ask two different muslim you will get two different answer.

Ask them what the Quran says not what stupidness they practised in thier country.

quote:

Originally posted by Chief:
Ask them what the Quran says not what stupidness they practised in thier country.

I hear you not well? How about some lunch next week with nandra?

Only if Nandra wear her red dress.