Is Man/Boy Love accepted in Muslim Nations (especially among the Pashtuns)?

The Times of London ( http://www.the-times.co.uk )

January 12, 2002


Kandahar comes out of the closet

From Tim Reid in Kandahar
Our correspondent sees the gay capital of South Asia throw off strictures of the Taleban

Now that Taleban rule is over in Mullah Omar's former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions, kites and razors which have begun to emerge. Visible again, too, are men with their 'ashna', or beloveds: young boys they have groomed for sex. Kandahar's Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for naive young boys. Before the Taleban arrived in 1994, the streets were filled with teenagers and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationship. It is called the homosexual capital of south Asia. Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy - locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior - that the rape of young boys by warlords was one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising the Taleban.

In the summer of 1994, a few months before the Taleban took control of the city, two commanders confronted each other over a young boy whom they both wanted to sodomise. In the ensuing fight civilians were killed.

Omar's group freed the boy and appeals began flooding in for Omar to help in other disputes. By November, Omar and his Taleban were Kandahar's new rulers. Despite the Taleban disdain for women, and the bizarre penchant of many for eyeliner, Omar immediately suppressed homosexuality.

Men accused of sodomy faced the punishment of having a wall toppled on to them, usually resulting in death. In February 1998 three men sentenced to death for sodomy in Kandahar were taken to the base of a huge mud and brick wall, which was pushed over by tank. Two of them died, but one managed to survive. "In the days of the Mujahidin, there were men with their 'ashna' everywhere, at every corner, in shops, on the streets, in hotels: it was completely open, a part of life," said Torjan, 38, one of the soldiers loyal to Kandahar's new governor, Gul Agha Sherzai.

"But in the later Mujahidin years, more and more soldiers would take boys by force, and keep them for as long as they wished. But when the Taleban came, they were very strict about the ban.

Of course, it still happened - the Taleban could not enter every house - but one could not see it." But for the first time since the Taleban fled, in the past three days, one can see the pairs returning: usually a heavily bearded man, seated next to, or walking with, a clean-shaven, fresh faced youth. There appears to be no shame or furtiveness about them, although when approached, they refuse to talk to a western journalist.

"They are just emerging again," Torjan said. "The fighters too now have the boys in their barracks. This was brought to the attention of Gul Agha, who ordered the boys to be expelled, but it continues. The boys live with the fighters very openly. In a short time, and certainly within a year, it will be like pre-Taleban: they will be everywhere."

This Pashtun tradition is even reflected in Pashtun poetry, odes written to the beauty and complexion of an 'ashna', but it is usually a terrible fate for the boys concerned. It is practised at all levels of Pashtun society, but for the poorer men, having an 'ashna' can raise his status.

"When a man sees a boy he likes - the age they like is 15 or 16 - they will approach him in the street and start talking to him, offering him tea," said Muhammad Shah, a shop owner. "Sometimes they go looking in the football stadium, or in the cinema (which has yet to reopen).

"He then starts to give him presents, hashish, or a watch, a ring, or even a motorbike. One of the most valued presents is a fighting pigeon, which can be worth up to $400 (£277). These boys are nearly always innocent, but such is the poverty here, they cannot refuse."

Once the boy falls into the man's clutches - nearly always men with a wife and family - he is marked for life, although the Kandaharis accept these relationships as part of their culture. When driven around, 'ashna' sit in the front passenger seat. The back seat is simply for his friends.

Even the parents of the boys know in their hearts the nature of the relationship, but will tell people that their son is working for the man.

They, like everyone else, will know this is a lie. "They say birds flew with both wings with the Taleban," Muhammad said. "But not any more."

quote:

"Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy - locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior"

Wow, the birds fly with one wing flapping and the other one covering up their behind. This is the most hilarious thing I've heard in a while. :-))

This message has been edited. Last edited by: André,

like we need the talibans back in power to curb this situation :))

I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

quote:

Originally posted by imala:
I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

Look in their archives. If you can't find it there try google, it never fails :-))

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:
I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

Look in their archives. If you can't find it there try google, it never fails :-))

There are other articles written by Tim Reid on the site that goes back as far back 26 September 2000 . For some reason, I can't find this one there. Maybe I am not as Google savvy as you. Remember I have those known health issues:-). Or could it be that http://www.the-times.co.uk is not associating itself with this article anymore. It was written on 2002 and we are now in 2008, alot has changed since then, e.g the Iraq war wasn't started as yet.

Imala;

He probably have it saved on his desktop like the picture...easy access. Don't worry, it will be posted again in about 3 months...no need to goto any length to save it.

Did you try googling National Enquirer? (:-))

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
Did you try googling National Enquirer? (:-))

Nah I don't think Andre reads the National Inquirer. I do believe it was from http://www.the-times.co.uk.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: imala,

quote:

Originally posted by imala:

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:
I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

Look in their archives. If you can't find it there try google, it never fails :-))

There are other articles written by Tim Reid on the site that goes back as far back 26 September 2000 . For some reason, I can't find this one there. Maybe I am not as Google savvy as you. Remember I have those known health issues:-). Or could it be that http://www.the-times.co.uk is not associating itself with this article anymore. It was written on 2002 and we are now in 2008, alot has changed since then, e.g the Iraq war wasn't started as yet.

When a newspaper publishes an article they don't go back later and disassociate themselves from it. You write it, you own it. The London Times does not have a link to the story in their archives any longer. It's still up on many other sites though. Fox News still maintains the link with credit given to the London Times as the original writers of the article. See the Fox News link here with the London Times logo - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44067,00.html . I can already hear the cry babies moaning - Fox News is Anti-Muslim, biased Jewish media, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc :-))

But is why you so bias though. How come yuh asking me for ah link and yuh ain't asking Terry for he own. :-))

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:
I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

Look in their archives. If you can't find it there try google, it never fails :-))

There are other articles written by Tim Reid on the site that goes back as far back 26 September 2000 . For some reason, I can't find this one there. Maybe I am not as Google savvy as you. Remember I have those known health issues:-). Or could it be that http://www.the-times.co.uk is not associating itself with this article anymore. It was written on 2002 and we are now in 2008, alot has changed since then, e.g the Iraq war wasn't started as yet.

When a newspaper publishes an article they don't go back later and disassociate themselves from it. You write it, you own it. The London Times does not have a link to the story in their archives any longer. It's still up on many other sites though. Fox News still maintains the link with credit given to the London Times as the original writers of the article. See the Fox News link here with the London Times logo - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44067,00.html . I can already hear the cry babies moaning - Fox News is Anti-Muslim, biased Jewish media, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc :-))

But is why you so bias though. How come yuh asking me for ah link and yuh ain't asking Terry for he own. :-))

me nah bias, just trying to get you to stop posting these irrelevant articles thats not really helping no one. You know even the Pope has moved on and he wants to have dialogues with Muslims. So, you should too :-).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: imala,

This bannas really obsessed with getting buggered. I think the admin should change his nick to BUGGA BAI.

quote:

Originally posted by Abu Jihad:
This bannas really obsessed with getting buggered. I think the admin should change his nick to BUGGA BAI.

Sorry, I'm not ivolved in that kinda nasty behavior like you and your ancestors. You come from a long line of Pashtun Bugga-Battie ancestors. Is that your name on the Pashtun forums? I hear that the birds fly over your house with one wing flapping and one wing covering their battie. :-))

quote:

Originally posted by imala:

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:

quote:

Originally posted by André:

quote:

Originally posted by imala:
I can't find this article on http://www.the-times.co.uk. Can you please post the actual link where you got it from.

Look in their archives. If you can't find it there try google, it never fails :-))

There are other articles written by Tim Reid on the site that goes back as far back 26 September 2000 . For some reason, I can't find this one there. Maybe I am not as Google savvy as you. Remember I have those known health issues:-). Or could it be that http://www.the-times.co.uk is not associating itself with this article anymore. It was written on 2002 and we are now in 2008, alot has changed since then, e.g the Iraq war wasn't started as yet.

When a newspaper publishes an article they don't go back later and disassociate themselves from it. You write it, you own it. The London Times does not have a link to the story in their archives any longer. It's still up on many other sites though. Fox News still maintains the link with credit given to the London Times as the original writers of the article. See the Fox News link here with the London Times logo - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,44067,00.html . I can already hear the cry babies moaning - Fox News is Anti-Muslim, biased Jewish media, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc :-))

But is why you so bias though. How come yuh asking me for ah link and yuh ain't asking Terry for he own. :-))

me nah bias, just trying to get you to stop posting these irrelevant articles thats not really helping no one. You know even the Pope has moved on and he wants to have dialogues with Muslims. So, you should too :-).

These articles are very relevant when you have Muslims obsessed with denigrating others with those articles I see popping up every day. Whuh happen, Y'all can't tek it when yuh own nasty behavior get exposed? I haven't heard your call for those people to back off yet. I am having dialogues with Muslims, am I not? I'm speaking in the same language and tone I see spoken by others. ;-))

I see another Pashtun has become obsessed with sexaul abuse in the Christian Churches. :-))

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSISL184892007...andChannel=0&sp=true

Afghan boy dancers sexually abused by former warlords
Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:08pm EST
PUL-E KHUMRI, Afghanistan (Reuters) - They are known as "bacha bereesh", boys without beards, teenage boys who dress up as girls and dance for male patrons at parties in northern Afghanistan.

It's an age old practice that has led to some of the boy dancers being turned into sex slaves by wealthy and powerful patrons, often former warlords, who dress the boys up as girls, shower them with gifts and keep them as "mistresses".

Afghan police are battling to crackdown on the practice which has angered Islamic clerics who say those involved should be stoned for sodomy, forbidden under Islamic law.

In a society where the sexes are strictly segregated, it is common for men to dance for other men at weddings in Afghanistan.

But in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further with competitions for their dancing boys.

"Every boy tries to be the first. They are dressed in women's clothes, have bells on their feet and have artificial breasts," said Mohammad Yawar, a former mujahideen fighter against the Taliban and resident of the northern town of Pul-e Khumri.

The practice, called "bacha bazi" -- literally "boy play" -- has a long history in northern Afghanistan, but sometimes it does not stop with just dancing.

"I very much enjoy hugging a boy. His smell and fragrance kills me," said Yawar.

The 38-year-old businessman said he recruited a 15-year-old boy three years ago to help him with his work.

"I have had him for at least three years, since he was only 15. He was looking for a job and I gave him somewhere to stay," said Yawar, showing the boy's picture.

"I don't have a wife. He is like my wife. I dress him in women's clothes and have him sleep beside me. I enjoy him and he is my everything," he said, kissing the photograph.

MARK OF PRESTIGE

Having the best-looking boy and the best dancer is a mark of prestige.

"Everyone tries to have the best, most handsome and good-looking boy," said a former mujahideen commander, who declined to be named.

"Sometimes we gather and make our boys dance and whoever wins, his boy will be the best boy."

Former mujahideen commanders hold such parties in and around Pul-e Khumri about once a week.

"Having a boy has become a custom for us. Whoever wants to show off, should have a boy," said Enayatullah, a 42-year-old landowner in Baghlan province.

"I was married to a woman 20 years ago, she left me because of my boy," he said. "I was playing with my boy every night and was away from home, eventually my wife decided to leave me. I am happy with my decision, because I am used to sleeping and entertaining with my young boy."

The men say they lavish money and gifts on their boys.

"I was only 14-years-old when a former Uzbek commander forced me to have sex with him," said Shir Mohammad in Sar-e Pol province. "Later, I quit my family and became his secretary. I have been with him for 10 years, I am now grown up, but he still loves me and I sleep with him."

Ahmad Jawad, aged 17, has been with a wealthy landowner for the past two years.

"I am used to it. I love my lord. I love to dance and act like a woman and play with my owner," he said.

Asked what he would do when he got older, he said: "Once I grow up, I will be an owner and I will have my own boys."

But Shir Mohammad, at 24, was already getting too old to be a dancing boy. "I am grown up now and do not have the beauty of former years. So, I proposed to marry my lord's daughter and he has agreed to it."

POVERTY

Many local residents have called for a crackdown, but are skeptical it will work as many of the men are powerful and well-armed former commanders.

Jahan Shah, who lives in Pul-e Khumri, said government and security officials should take tough action against unIslamic and immoral acts.

"If they don't stop this, it will become a custom and hundreds of other boys will be involved in it," he said.

Police and security officials in northern Afghanistan say they have been doing their best to arrest the men involved.

"It is sad to state that this practice that includes making boys dance, sexual abuse and sometimes even selling boys, has been going on for years," said General Asadollah Amarkhil, the security chief of Kunduz province.

"We have taken steps to stop it to the extent that we are able," he said.

Amarkhil said poverty, widespread in Afghanistan after nearly three decades of war, forced teenage boys into compliance.

"We have taken very strict measures to save the lives of the boys and punish the men," he said. "We are monitoring to find out where these men and boys gather, then go there and arrest them."

Those found guilty of abuse would be jailed for at least 15 years, said Baghlan chief prosecutor Hafizullah Khaliqyar.

"We have 25 cases of such immoral acts. They are being processed and we are trying our utmost to tackle the problem," he said.

Islamic scholars recommended harsher punishment.

"Those who do this are the devil," said Mawlawi Mohammad Sadiq Sadiqyar, a scholar and prayer leader in the main northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif. "Under Islamic law, those who practice this should be stoned to death."

But some of the men say they are not interested in women.

"We know it is immoral and unIslamic, but how can we quit? We do not like women, we just want boys," said Chaman Gul, aged 35 of Takhar province.

quote:

Originally posted by André:
Islamic scholars recommended harsher punishment.

"Those who do this are the devil," said Mawlawi Mohammad Sadiq Sadiqyar, a scholar and prayer leader in the main northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif. "Under Islamic law, those who practice this should be stoned to death."

But some of the men say they are not interested in women.

"We know it is immoral and unIslamic, but how can we quit? We do not like women, we just want boys," said Chaman Gul, aged 35 of Takhar province.

Interesting article, I would have posted it my self. It concluded that Homosexuality is immoral and Unislamic.

I don't know any established church where abusing minors is acceptable. This is not only unique to Muslims and Islam. What we see here is back and forth on matters that are intended to insult each side. The hypocricy here is that Muslims sneakily glee in their insult of others. Some years ago, someone posted something derogatory about Muslims and I laid out a claim that we Muslims were numero uno. I was cut down down to size for what clearly came out as my attitude of putting myself up above others. I learned a good lesson from D2 on this. But the best lesson came from Petal who asked me to discuss the topic at hand and not try to interject other discussions into it in an attempt to divert the discussion. Dre was also advising something similar and for that I would ask Dre to stick to the topic as started and if he wants to discuss another topic he should start another thread. Don't fight fire with fire. You advised me against this some years ago.

But rest asured, I have seen some real hypocritical Muslims here. They as Dre put it want to dish out but don't want to see their own dirty laundry hung out. They are so tight lipped when stuff shows up. We don't discuss these things, they claim. We cannot take an opinion, they say. But let the other side do the same thing, suddenly they all have opinions.

If you want to own the good things that Muslims do, you have to also be willing to take responsibility for the bad things that they do.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
I don't know any established church where abusing minors is acceptable.

Did you read up about the raid on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
41 children had broken bones, and some of the boys were sexually aboused and half the underage girls were pregnant.
The church is defending its actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
Did you read up about the raid on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
41 children had broken bones, and some of the boys were sexually aboused and half the underage girls were pregnant.
The church is defending its actions.

In what way?

They said they did nothing wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
They said they did nothing wrong.

Aren't we constantly asking people to separate our Ialamic teachings from the claims being made by Muslims? We should extend that same option to people of other faiths/denominations.