Women in Islamic Society — 12: Insisting on Propriety, Decency
Dr. Abd Al-Haleem Abu Shuqqah

It is often thought that Muslim society segregates men and women, not allowing them to mix even in a small measure. This is not true. Muslim society is a mixed one, but it has values of decency and propriety that need to be observed. It also provides simple measures that allow these values to be easily and smoothly maintained. It is important, for example, to allow men and women to move separately in congested areas, but there is nothing to prevent them from being together in ample space. Thus, they attend together in the mosque, but their exit should be organized to avoid congestion.

Umm Salamah, one of the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him), reports: “When God’s Messenger finished his prayers with Salam, the women would leave straightaway but he stayed a little while longer before he left.” (Related by Al-Bukhari.) Ibn Shihab, an early scholar of high standing, comments: “I think that he stayed on to allow women to leave before men who also wished to leave early caught up with them.” This is, then, a matter of organization when exiting the mosque. It is well known that exits at public places are often very congested at the end of a function. By staying on a few minutes, the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed women to leave comfortably before men left.

This is confirmed by the Prophet’s suggestion to his companions: “Perhaps we should leave this door for women...” This was certainly to make their movement easier. On one occasion, the Prophet left the mosque and soon men and women were walking together in the middle of the road. The Prophet said to women: “Move to the side. It is not proper for you to walk in the middle. Keep to either side.” Again, this was a simple measure to ensure that decency is maintained.

Similarly, congestion should be avoided in public places, but this does not mean that women should always be in the back, as it is the case in mosque. Keeping women in the back is a special case that applies to prayer only, whether prayer is performed in the mosque or at home, with strangers or with husbands and close relatives. On all occasions, other than prayers, Islamic values of propriety require separate seating and avoidance of congestion. This may be done by allocating a separate area within the meeting place for women, or by adopting any arrangement that ensures no overcrowding. What we are talking about here is that men and women should not be too close physically. It is in reference to this that Imam Al-Sarakhsi, a leading Hanafi scholar, says: “A woman should not try to kiss the Black Stone (when doing the tawaf in the Kaaba) if there are several people around it. She is required not to be too close to men and crowd with them. She kisses the Black Stone only if she finds the place clear.”

Another important aspect of Islamic propriety is the prevention of one man being alone with one woman in an enclosed place. The Prophet says: “Let no man be alone with a woman unless she is accompanied by a mahram, i.e. a close relative.” (Related by Al-Bukhari.) Ibn Hajar, an authoritative commentator on Hadith, says: “This indicates that being alone with a stranger woman is forbidden. This is unanimously agreed by scholars. However, they differ as to whether a mahram could be replaced by others who ensure that the purpose is met, such as the presence of other reliable women. This is allowed because suspicion does not arise in this case. The following situations do not come under the prohibited one-to-one meeting:

1. A meeting when other people are present. Under the heading ‘permissibility of a man meeting a woman with people around’, Al-Bukhari relates: “Anas ibn Malik reported that a woman from the Ansar came to the Prophet and he met her alone. He said to her, ‘By God, you, (the Ansar), are the dearest people to me.’” (Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim.) Commenting on this Hadith Ibn Hajar says: “Such one-to-one meeting should not be conducted in a way where they are physically unseen by others, or their conversation is unheard, as happens when a woman is saying something that she would be too shy to say in public.” He also says that the Hadith makes clear that speaking privately to a woman is not incompatible with Islam when both are safe from allurement.

2. A meeting of two or three men with one woman, when necessary. The supporting evidence is given in the Hadith that quotes the Prophet (peace be upon him) as saying: “As from today, let not a man enter the home of a woman whose husband is absent, unless accompanied by one or two men.” (Related by Muslim.) Imam Al-Nawawi, who wrote a commentary on Muslim’s anthology of authentic Hadiths, says: “At face value, this Hadith allows two or three men to be alone with a woman unrelated to them, but scholars of our Shafie school agree that this is prohibited. Therefore, the Hadith should be interpreted as meaning a group of honorable and God-fearing men who would never agree to indecency.”

A meeting of one man with a group of women. The prohibited meeting is that of one man with one woman. When there are more men or women, the prohibition is removed. Al-Nawawi says: “Should a man visit a woman and is alone with her, this is prohibited for both of them. If he visits a group of women unrelated to him, the majority of scholars agree that this is permissible. The evidence is clear in the Hadith that says: ‘As from today, let not a man enter the home of a woman whose husband is absent, unless accompanied by one or two men.’ Moreover, when there is a group of women, a man cannot tempt one of them to join him in doing something indecent.”

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Umm Salamah, one of the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him), reports: “When God’s Messenger finished his prayers with Salam, the women would leave straightaway but he stayed a little while longer before he left.” (Related by Al-Bukhari.) Ibn Shihab, an early scholar of high standing, comments: “I think that he stayed on to allow women to leave before men who also wished to leave early caught up with them.” This is, then, a matter of organization when exiting the mosque. It is well known that exits at public places are often very congested at the end of a function. By staying on a few minutes, the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed women to leave comfortably before men left.

what?

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This is confirmed by the Prophet’s suggestion to his companions: “Perhaps we should leave this door for women...” This was certainly to make their movement easier. On one occasion, the Prophet left the mosque and soon men and women were walking together in the middle of the road. The Prophet said to women: “Move to the side. It is not proper for you to walk in the middle. Keep to either side.” Again, this was a simple measure to ensure that decency is maintained.

i hope he means BOTH men and women to walk on the side of the road....otherwise this is bullshit.

Yu ever see the women strolling leisurely and yakking on the cell phones?

I wonder what Dr. Abd Al-Haleem Abu Shuqqah woulld say if he uses the subway during rush hour.

Not to put all you lights out. But the Qur'an says "laa raiba fi hi" there is no doubt in it. hadith: that which is ATTRIBUTED to the prophet, meaing that there is doubt, as evidenced by the classification into sahih etc.
The Qur'an says it is "tibyanan li kulli shay"..a clarity for everything." MEaning that if something not there, then it is UP TO THE PEOPLE to figure it out. The hadith comes AFTER and as shown by the contradictions, is often words put into the mouth of the prophet by later people to get a source of authority for their views. Next, the hadith is a field for SCHOLARS to argue about..not to say you are not scholars, BUT NOT IN THE FIELD OF HADITH. Muslim, bukhari and all those were NEVER meant to be discussed by the laypersons. Utherwise, you fall into crap.
Same goes for hinduism..why you think the work is called "UPANISHADS" and the VEDAS were meant for brahmins only to read? Because if NON-SPECIALISTS got hold of it, they wouuld create havoc. Me know that some pnadits in Gyana don't follow that...but it is the same in EVERY RELIGION. Now for a phatwah..gyalls should not be on cell phones unless it is to talk to me, raymond, krisha, laker, freak, terry, mitwah, and some others. Other than that, I will ensure that the society for the protection of virtue and whatever come and nail allyou. Signing off for tonight and a few days. Where the hell is my gulgulas? All you people stingy. Phagwah and no persaud, no abeer. NO doubt all you suffering in the cold of Toronto for hte most part. Is Allah/Bhagwan/Adonai put me in warm san diego because SHE know i is good. And allyou is not. But I am too humble to push it down u throats.

Signing off for tonight and a few days. Where the hell is my gulgulas? All you people stingy. Phagwah and no persaud, no abeer. NO doubt all you suffering in the cold of Toronto for hte most part. Is Allah/Bhagwan/Adonai put me in warm san diego because SHE know i is good. And allyou is not. But I am too humble to push it down u throats.

When uncle sam ready for you rass i want to see who go help you! i hope you are not driving on HWY 805 or 54 when to earth move you rass in San Diego Bay.

Island boy....At least when I go in the bay, I will do so with the sight of the latinas here with the caliente mini skirts. Hey..Uncle sam is good to me (so far!!!).

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Originally posted by Islandboy:
Signing off for tonight and a few days. Where the hell is my gulgulas? All you people stingy. Phagwah and no persaud, no abeer. NO doubt all you suffering in the cold of Toronto for hte most part. Is Allah/Bhagwan/Adonai put me in warm san diego because SHE know i is good. And allyou is not. But I am too humble to push it down u throats.

When uncle sam ready for you rass i want to see who go help you! i hope you are not driving on HWY 805 or 54 when to earth move you rass in San Diego Bay.

Ever notice how all these thinkers use the paradigm of the middle ages and arab desert culture to seek to impose THOSE supposed norms on a society that is TEMPORALLY and SPATIALLY removed from their created one? This is why traditional Islam has a problem with modernity. Always looking in the frigging past. Well, in the past people went out and shat in low lying areas, and the arabs treated non-arabs as clients ( a euphemistic name for third class citizens)....and as to why Muhammad came to the arabs..the answer is clear: they were the lowest of the low. And when he died, they went back to being the lowest of the low. Is that a racist statement? Well someday someone of youse should take a look..ask the Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Philippas, Africans how they are treated in the Arab countries. Then you will see why the protectors of the so called faith like living in the west, coming here and learning at western univresities. Ooops..broke my promise. I guess GNI can be addictive.

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Originally posted by Mitwah:
I wonder what Dr. Abd Al-Haleem Abu Shuqqah woulld say if he uses the subway during rush hour.

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Not to put all you lights out. But the Qur'an says "laa raiba fi hi" there is no doubt in it. hadith: that which is ATTRIBUTED to the prophet, meaing that there is doubt, as evidenced by the classification into sahih etc.
The Qur'an says it is "tibyanan li kulli shay"..a clarity for everything." MEaning that if something not there, then it is UP TO THE PEOPLE to figure it out. The hadith comes AFTER and as shown by the contradictions, is often words put into the mouth of the prophet by later people to get a source of authority for their views. Next, the hadith is a field for SCHOLARS to argue about..not to say you are not scholars, BUT NOT IN THE FIELD OF HADITH. Muslim, bukhari and all those were NEVER meant to be discussed by the laypersons. Utherwise, you fall into crap.

Reds, like Bro Khaleel try to send you a message?(wink)

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Originally posted by Chief:

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Not to put all you lights out. But the Qur'an says "laa raiba fi hi" there is no doubt in it. hadith: that which is ATTRIBUTED to the prophet, meaing that there is doubt, as evidenced by the classification into sahih etc.
The Qur'an says it is "tibyanan li kulli shay"..a clarity for everything." MEaning that if something not there, then it is UP TO THE PEOPLE to figure it out. The hadith comes AFTER and as shown by the contradictions, is often words put into the mouth of the prophet by later people to get a source of authority for their views. Next, the hadith is a field for SCHOLARS to argue about..not to say you are not scholars, BUT NOT IN THE FIELD OF HADITH. Muslim, bukhari and all those were NEVER meant to be discussed by the laypersons. Utherwise, you fall into crap.

Reds, like Bro Khaleel try to send you a message?(wink)

i dont need to be a scholar to know that the statements in the article above are a load of crock.(wink back)

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Originally posted by khaleel:
Ever notice how all these thinkers use the paradigm of the middle ages and arab desert culture to seek to impose THOSE supposed norms on a society that is TEMPORALLY and SPATIALLY removed from their created one? This is why traditional Islam has a problem with modernity. Always looking in the frigging past. Well, in the past people went out and shat in low lying areas, and the arabs treated non-arabs as clients ( a euphemistic name for third class citizens)....and as to why Muhammad came to the arabs..the answer is clear: they were the lowest of the low. And when he died, they went back to being the lowest of the low. Is that a racist statement? Well someday someone of youse should take a look..ask the Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Philippas, Africans how they are treated in the Arab countries. Then you will see why the protectors of the so called faith like living in the west, coming here and learning at western univresities. Ooops..broke my promise. I guess GNI can be addictive.

Good response!
Caught between 7 pebbles and a hard place....

Even the definiation of "sahih" hadith is problematic...to the layperson, it means the narrative is authentic. Actually it means that it does not have a discernible problem in its line of tradents. That is quite different to being proven correct....which is why Bukhari etc would speak to his students and scholars...not to the average person.

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Originally posted by khaleel:
Ever notice how all these thinkers use the paradigm of the middle ages and arab desert culture to seek to impose THOSE supposed norms on a society that is TEMPORALLY and SPATIALLY removed from their created one? This is why traditional Islam has a problem with modernity. Always looking in the frigging past. Well, in the past people went out and shat in low lying areas, and the arabs treated non-arabs as clients ( a euphemistic name for third class citizens)....and as to why Muhammad came to the arabs..the answer is clear: they were the lowest of the low. And when he died, they went back to being the lowest of the low. Is that a racist statement? Well someday someone of youse should take a look..ask the Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Philippas, Africans how they are treated in the Arab countries. Then you will see why the protectors of the so called faith like living in the west, coming here and learning at western univresities. Ooops..broke my promise. I guess GNI can be addictive.

you send them wannabe arabs running for cover ...lol.

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Originally posted by Aragorn:
you send them wannabe arabs running for cover ...lol.

More like our job has been referred to a more informed source. Now we can all just sit back and learn from the scholar.

Nah...the bosnians are Muslims. But look back at our grandparents in guyana..they did not DRESS arab nor act arab..they were tied into their indian culture. What do I find after years of study...drawing on Bruce Lee: he said that before he mastered kung fu, he thought a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. While studying the stuff, he learnt differently. when he mastered it, he found that a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. Same for Islam: we might say that certain aspects of our grandparents' practise of Islam were wrong, and we may be right, but they were generally GOOD people and there was harmony among guyanese more than there is today, although now we supposedly have so many scholars among us. If I am guilty of promoting disharmony, I am sorry..it never is my intent to do so.

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Originally posted by ksazma:

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Originally posted by Aragorn:
you send them wannabe arabs running for cover ...lol.

More like our job has been referred to a more informed source. Now we can all just sit back and learn from the scholar.

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Originally posted by khaleel:
Nah...the bosnians are Muslims. But look back at our grandparents in guyana..they did not DRESS arab nor act arab..they were tied into their indian culture.

Yes, but when you bend down to pray with a dhoti, yuh lil bai does be exposed.
The gown does cover the lil bais very well!!

I am one of those who stay guarded from the arabization of Muslims. From what I see in my little sphere is that they more than anyone else are responsible for the black eye that keep following many good people of this great tradition. I haven't worn a gown in some 5 years because I find that I pray more comfortably in a pair of pants and a regular shirt. Of course, it does not make me arab enough and maybe some may surmise that I am not religious enough but in my mind, comfort is important and most times anyways, the gown becomes the road sweeper which very quickly removes my cleanse condition. That is why I never follow the crowd to the park for Eid prayers. I have a problem getting so close to dog doody. :) One imam asked me a few years ago if I went to the park for the Eid prayer and I told him that I did not. He told me that I need to fear Allah more. I told him that Eid prayer is not compulsory and if there is no Eid prayer outside of the park, I would pass it up. That is just how much I would not get up close and personal with dirty stuff at the park. :)

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Originally posted by khaleel:
Nah...the bosnians are Muslims. But look back at our grandparents in guyana..they did not DRESS arab nor act arab..they were tied into their indian culture. What do I find after years of study...drawing on Bruce Lee: he said that before he mastered kung fu, he thought a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. While studying the stuff, he learnt differently. when he mastered it, he found that a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. Same for Islam: we might say that certain aspects of our grandparents' practise of Islam were wrong, and we may be right, but they were generally GOOD people and there was harmony among guyanese more than there is today, although now we supposedly have so many scholars among us. If I am guilty of promoting disharmony, I am sorry..it never is my intent to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
you send them wannabe arabs running for cover ...lol.

More like our job has been referred to a more informed source. Now we can all just sit back and learn from the scholar.