Below is Khaleel's post from the foreign Imam thread
==========================

Dear Forum members and I assume Fellow Guyanese

After one of your forum participants drew my attention to the brouhaha created by the headline in Feb 6 Ottawa Citizen, I am just coming on long enough to clear up some issues.
Certainly as someone in the academic study of religions, I expect to encounter opposition on views--indeed one attains a Ph. D by coming with and defending a new thesis.

I am prepared to encounter faith based persons who may throw out every intellectual consideration in favour of the idea of "God says it is so, hence no argument." But what I am not prepared for is to see a purported co-religionist, assuming a rather indicative Muslim name, engage in ad hominem arguments. I shall not waste time answering the charges about my purported lunacy etc...for it is possible that I may indeed be so. But the fact is then that your Canadian tax payer dollars allowed me to vent it, for it was under a Quebec Scholarship that I attended McGill and obtained my last degree.

On certain issues...I never intended or can anyone prove that I said ALL guyanese Muslims are stupid. I indicated that many come to Canada to follow imams who are, if I may use a very mild euphemism, totally out of touch with reality. I have studied in the Middle east and in Canada, and have lived in many provinces...and the nonsense preached in the name of Islam is truly problematic.


SOmeone noted that Guyanese have access to translations of the Qur'an. I find this in itself a problem. A person who reads a translation is at the whim of the translator...and the use of interpolations etc can often change the meaning of a verse completely. The "Noble Qur'an"-- a translation circulated by the Saudi government contained in the footnotes of the first chapter of the Qur'an that those misled were the Christians, and those with whom God is angry are Jews. Nowhere in the actual text does it say this. I find this misleading and tantamount to fomenting hatred.

I note that whenever my views are mentioned, no scholar really comes with anything that challenges the view itself...but chooses to take personal shots at me. In some cases, such people don't even realise that I am Guyanese, that I speak fluent arabic and some other languages that are relevant to my scholarship. I raise this point because whenever a non-Muslim uses a verse to show something purportedly negative about the QUr'an, many Muslims jump to say "that is just a translation." Well, how come the translation is good for some and not for others? In religion, the selective use of text is called pretext, and is tantamount to hypocrisy.

I just returned from Guyana...and was appalled at the religious bigotry that i saw there. Islam seems to be on a process of retrogression, challenging the cameraderie and harmony that I remember among fellow countrypeople.

I note too that someone said that my critique of foreign imams could apply to hindu pandits. This is certainly true...and I do hold that some pandits are not worth listening to. As a scholar of religion, many times I have to be in the sad position of DEFENDING hinduism against idiotic pandits. These pandits are a welcome gift for unscrupulous priests and imams who use their nonsensical rantings to convert hindus.

(In Guyana the conversion of hindus to Christianity, and to a lesser extent, Islam, is on the rise.) But the fact of the matter is that in Canada and the US, hindus for the most part are a quiet lot, dedicated to their own improvement and that of the country of their residence. I do admit that some support the concept of hindutva...but that issue is within the borders of India and does not manifest itself in bigots and terrorists blowing up trade towers in New York.

I have served as an imam...and know first hand the complaints that come from the congregation. I know too that right now, while Muslims are under the lenses of the most critical analysis, instead of dealing with their relation to God, many write me letters trying to prove that Christians, Jews, Hindus etc are going to hell. Now this bothers me...I think each individual has enough to deal with in terms of his/'her personal responsibility and karma (read result of actions), that s/he ought to bother about the self rather than others.

Islam--and no other religion--cannot progress until there is critical self examination. The defence of age old, ossified, chauvinistic, androcentric, misanthropic constructs by the use of personal insults against me indicates that detractors have nothing intellectually worth bringnig to the table. Yes, I am from the country side, yes I do speak with a berbician accent, yes,I have many faults. But I love the text of my religion...and indeed I love the text of many other religions, for I hold that the Divine has given guidance to all nations and all peoples.

SOmeone on the blog made an astute observation: how could God expect the entire world to make sense of a document written in Arabic. This overlooked factor is one that holds severe repercussions for muslim thought. The Q was in Arabic becuase Muhammad's people were arabic...and the details and laws are for them. In terms of general spiritual philosophy, the Quran has to be read in context.

The whole idea is rather simple: if Muslims--including me--want to live in Canada, then they must do so as citizens of the country, contributing to its welfare. If they want change, then they do so by the normal process that the constitution dictates as proper. Anything else would be subversive. And the Qur'an has details about how to deal with subversive elements in a society. But since I preach against the implementation of the QUr'anic minutiae in Canada, I shall let some of the so-called arabic reading participants go find the reference.

If you have read this far, I thank you. If you choose to hate my words, then so be it. We are all entitled to our own opinions. All we owe to ourselves is that such opinions are based on truth, not on prejudice and bigotry.

As for those Muslims who seek to deny me entry into heaven (even though God has not pronounced judgment on me yet), please keep your heaven that many of you think is populated by houris and sexy maidens. (Yes, I know the arguments--that is not in the Qur'an; correction: there are references there that so suggest, and the hadith is replete with the imagery). I would rather be in a heaven where there is dhall, rice, salt fish choka, followed by mauby and maybe some sapodilla.

I shall not revisit to rebut, for the Qur'an simply says "to you your religion, and to me mine." Peace in whichever path you choose.

quote:

I shall not revisit to rebut

the man aint coming back...

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:

quote:

I shall not revisit to rebut

the man aint coming back...

I hope he comes back for some debates, if you guys can refrain from the personal insults.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunil:

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:

quote:

I shall not revisit to rebut

the man aint coming back...

I hope he comes back for some debates, if you guys can refrain from the personal insults.

i hope so too...but this is GNI....personal insults will always flow.....BTW..."you" guys?

I been saying this a long time...just not so eloquently.....

We used to all get along so much better in the old days back in Guyana...now folks just wanna use religion in a negative way....

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:
.BTW..."you" guys?

Anyone who is dismissive of Khaleed without engaging him with facts. Lets have some healthy debates without the cop out strategy of personal insults.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunil:

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:
.BTW..."you" guys?

Anyone who is dismissive of Khaleed without engaging him with facts. Lets have some healthy debates without the cop out strategy of personal insults.

For what reason you wish to encourage this 'Healthy Debate'?

How about taking Religion to the Religion forum?

quote:

Originally posted by Sunil:

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:
.BTW..."you" guys?

Anyone who is dismissive of Khaleed without engaging him with facts. Lets have some healthy debates without the cop out strategy of personal insults.

wurd.

On certain issues...I never intended or can anyone prove that I said ALL guyanese Muslims are stupid. I indicated that many come to Canada to follow imams who are, if I may use a very mild euphemism, totally out of touch with reality. I have studied in the Middle east and in Canada, and have lived in many provinces...and the nonsense preached in the name of Islam is truly problematic.



1. It was reported that he said that "the average guyanese" is ignorant of Islam and goes to a "foreign imam" for advice.

I have never seen any Guyanese go to a foreign Imam in all my life. This is pure speculation by the brother. The average Guyanese is well versed in Islam.


2. A person who reads a translation is at the whim of the translator...and the use of interpolations etc can often change the meaning of a verse completely. The "Noble Qur'an"-- a translation circulated by the Saudi government contained in the footnotes of the first chapter of the Qur'an that those misled were the Christians, and those with whom God is angry are Jews. Nowhere in the actual text does it say this. I find this misleading and tantamount to fomenting hatred.

This is why people read several different Qur'anic translations. Why would the good brother's translation be the only correct one, and all the others incorrect? I can say with certainty that if one reads the entire Qur'an and the footnotes of several different translators, one will get a few different opinions, but it does not detract from the general meaning of the whole text. The real fact is, the conflicts among muslims do not arise from Quranic verses, they arise from hadith interpretations.

Terry: you are right but not fully so. I just came back from Guyana, went to visit CIOG. They were happy to introduce me to someone from South Africa (I demurred). Then you know of the iranian cleric that was murdered in Guyana. The country has changed. Our boys who go abroad to study come back spouting foreign ideals.
On the matter of translations: again you are right. but a transltor has to defend his rendition. He has the arabic skills, but the READER often does not know of the dogmatic biases that impose themselves on the translation. And the average person can't see that. So for example, we have Q21:7, 16:43 being translated by shias, sunnis, ahmadies, zaydis differently. It is generally true that by reading a myriad of renditions, one may come away with a generally okay understanding. but we don't dispute about the generalities...we dispute abut specifics...bECAUSE of the very problem I mentioned. ON other threads, you see fanatics arguing with me...but can I really, honestly expect anything better from them? They have an inferiority complex..if it comes from a Guyanese, it must be somehow inferior as far as they are concerned. I have been in gatherings whre my ARABIC students are approached to verify what I say...they find it laughable and realize the complex of my countrypeople. Our fanatics, while they have the noblest of intentions (at least in their mind) cannot argue on the basis of what the q says if they dont' know the language. ANd often it is not the language only, but the understanding of IDIOMS...all those things are problematic...i guess i is back...now dat is propa guyanese english.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
On certain issues...I never intended or can anyone prove that I said ALL guyanese Muslims are stupid. I indicated that many come to Canada to follow imams who are, if I may use a very mild euphemism, totally out of touch with reality. I have studied in the Middle east and in Canada, and have lived in many provinces...and the nonsense preached in the name of Islam is truly problematic.



1. It was reported that he said that "the average guyanese" is ignorant of Islam and goes to a "foreign imam" for advice.

I have never seen any Guyanese go to a foreign Imam in all my life. This is pure speculation by the brother. The average Guyanese is well versed in Islam.


2. A person who reads a translation is at the whim of the translator...and the use of interpolations etc can often change the meaning of a verse completely. The "Noble Qur'an"-- a translation circulated by the Saudi government contained in the footnotes of the first chapter of the Qur'an that those misled were the Christians, and those with whom God is angry are Jews. Nowhere in the actual text does it say this. I find this misleading and tantamount to fomenting hatred.

This is why people read several different Qur'anic translations. Why would the good brother's translation be the only correct one, and all the others incorrect? I can say with certainty that if one reads the entire Qur'an and the footnotes of several different translators, one will get a few different opinions, but it does not detract from the general meaning of the whole text. The real fact is, the conflicts among muslims do not arise from Quranic verses, they arise from hadith interpretations.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuff:
How about taking Religion to the Religion forum?

good idea

quote:

Originally posted by Reds:

quote:

I shall not revisit to rebut

the man aint coming back...

then he got hooked and now cant leave