I don't know if it is totally true that what you sow, that is what you reap. There are other factors. Take for instance, there are much more educated people where I work and listening to them, they have sacrificed much more than I have to acquire their education. I see them working much harder than I do and yet I make much more than they do. I get much more breaks from the upper management than many people who have been working there some 15-20 years longer than I have been.
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It's call Karma!

One of the first and most dramatic illustrations of karma can be found in the epic Mahabharata. In this poem, Arjuna the protagonist is preparing for battle when he realizes that the enemy consists of members of his own family and decides not to fight. His charioteer, Krishna - one of the incarnations of God (Vishnu) - explains to Arjuna the concept of "duty" among other things and makes him see that it is his duty to fight. The whole of the Bhagavad Gita within the Mahabharata, is a dialogue between these two on aspects of life including morality and a host of other philosophical themes. The original Hindu concept of karma was later enhanced by several other movements within the religion, most notably Vedanta, and Tantra.

Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is not fate, for man acts with free will creating his own destiny. According to the Vedas, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate response.

Karma is considered to be a spiritually originated law. Many Hindus see God's direct involvement in this process, while others consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma.[10][11][12] Karma is not punishment or retribution, but simply an extended expression or consequences, of natural acts. The effects experienced are also able to be mitigated by actions and are not necessarily fated. That is to say, a particular action now is not binding to some particular, pre-determined future experience or reaction; it is not a simple, one-to-one correspondence of reward or punishment.

Hindu scriptures divide karma into three kinds: Sanchita (accumulated), Prarabdha (fruit-bearing) and Kriyamana (current) karma. All kriyamana karmas become sanchita karma upon completion. From this stock of sanchita karma, a handful is taken out to serve one lifetime and this handful of actions which has begun to bear fruit and which will be exhausted only on their fruit being enjoyed and not otherwise, is known as prarabdha karma. In this way, so long as the stock of sanchita karma lasts, a part of it continues to be taken out as prarabdha karma for being enjoyed in one lifetime, leading to the cycle of birth and death. A jiva cannot attain moksha until the accumulated sanchita karmas are completely exhausted. [13]

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:
It's call Karma!

But why do we need another bodily life to reap that karma? Why can't we reap that right now where this current body do good and should be the body that benefit? If My current body is cool, why should an other body enjoy the pleasures of the likes of Eva Mendes (or Cassandra from the Miami Heat :) )? We all see a lot of good people punishing while we see many apparent bad people enjoying the finer things of in life.

One of the stories that always sticks in my mind is that of Harischandra. He sufferred quite a bit and I still don't know why he did.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:
It's call Karma!

One of the stories that always sticks in my mind is that of Harischandra. He sufferred quite a bit and I still don't know why he did.

Bhai that's the point - you don't know what he did but that higher power up there does.

I have one of my uncle, the most wonderful kind hearted person and people thinks the world of him, except his wife and children. It breaks my heart to see him now and I alway question what has he done to deserve this punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:
I have one of my uncle, the most wonderful kind hearted person and people thinks the world of him, except his wife and children. It breaks my heart to see him now and I alway question what has he done to deserve this punishment.

So why can't he enjoy the fruits of his goodness now? Remember that there is joy to the body also and not only to the soul. Why does he have to come back in another body to enjoy the joys that this current body sowed? And worse yet, that future body could even be the body of a scondrel. It has to be more than we reaping just what we sow. And how that is distributed is beyond our control and/or understanding.

btw, whatever your uncle is at disadvantaged with currently, I pray that he is relieved of soon.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:
I have one of my uncle, the most wonderful kind hearted person and people thinks the world of him, except his wife and children. It breaks my heart to see him now and I alway question what has he done to deserve this punishment.

So why can't he enjoy the fruits of his goodness now? Remember that there is joy to the body also and not only to the soul. Why does he have to come back in another body to enjoy the joys that this current body sowed? And worse yet, that future body could even be the body of a scondrel. It has to be more than we reaping just what we sow. And how that is distributed is beyond our control and/or understanding.

btw, whatever your uncle is at disadvantaged with currently, I pray that he is relieved of soon.

Point taken Kaz. But that is precisely the point of responsibility. If we sowed now and now only, then the J/c/I concept of an afterlife would be meaningless. IT is to foster a concept of answerability in us...karma works the same way with the samsara..the coming back cycle. In both cases, Abrahamic/Hindu we see the concept of the "ghayb"..the unseen. In Hindu karma it is not that a comes back as b..i.e. me coming back as eva mendes...no, a comes back as a...but either better or worse A.

BTW, the Druzes..and I am not agreeing or disagreeing with them..could not understand the concept of a baby being born with an affliction if God was just and gentle..from the J/c/I point of view. so they brought the concept of reincarnation into their view of Islam. Druzes believe in reincarnation based on karma.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
In that case, people who do a whole lot of good should not be punished. Likewise, people who are evil should not enjoy the finer things in life. Yet we see this happening around us all the time. Take Saddam Hussein for instance. What have he sowed to have had the pleasure of living in all those marble presidential palaces? Sure he died horrible but what does it matter how you die. It is how you live and for someone who has been evil (well, maybe evil is not the appropriate description), he sure lived a very previledged life.

I believe that our responsibility is limited to what we are given by God. We really don't have much control on what we get but we do have a responsibility to how we use the things that we get. Which I am afraid brings us back in full circle. One cannot say which group is trained to be more responsible since the belief structures are different and all are logical within faith based discussions. Then again. I have no idea what I am talking about. Where is that California Ruby Port when you need it. :)

U raas beginning to sound like Fazlur Rahman. Excellent view. Which is why FR says that it happens right here. But then the saddam case would be a problem for him. WHich is why the view of RESPONSIBILITY and an afterlife..that you don't hafta see it NOW...but later. Saddam, by the way, was an arab nationalist. ONly the iraq war made him into a professed Muslim. I will not seek to answer questions if I think he was a real muslim or not..out of my area...

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rosita:
It's call Karma!

One of the stories that always sticks in my mind is that of Harischandra. He sufferred quite a bit and I still don't know why he did

Bhai that's the point - you don't know what he did but that higher power up there does.

I have one of my uncle, the most wonderful kind hearted person and people thinks the world of him, except his wife and children. It breaks my heart to see him now and I alway question what has he done to deserve this punishment.

Rosita: maybe in your uncles case it is one of Maya/avidhya.. I use the term without elucidation since I assume u are hindu and will understand my meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
it is not that a comes back as b..i.e. me coming back as eva mendes...no,

But I want Eva Mendes now. :) Not later when she is not so hot or when I don't have the hots for her. :) I spent the last hour or so watching pics of her on google. Man, she is hot. :)

Anyway, I get your point.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
it is not that a comes back as b..i.e. me coming back as eva mendes...no,

But I want Eva Mendes now. :) Not later when she is not so hot or when I don't have the hots for her. :) I spent the last hour or so watching pics of her on google. Man, she is hot. :)

Anyway, I get your point.

Bwoy, you get hotta and betta than she in San Diego and Toronto. Just for fun, check out the story of LIlith..maybe on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
it is not that a comes back as b..i.e. me coming back as eva mendes...no,

But I want Eva Mendes now. :) Not later when she is not so hot or when I don't have the hots for her. :) I spent the last hour or so watching pics of her on google. Man, she is hot. :)

Anyway, I get your point.

Bwoy, you get hotta and betta than she in San Diego and Toronto. Just for fun, check out the story of LIlith..maybe on the internet.

That's mythology though. Eva is real. Really really real.

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
Rosita: maybe in your uncles case it is one of Maya/avidhya.. I use the term without elucidation since I assume u are hindu and will understand my meaning.

You have assumed right. Maya is illusion. This is reality.

Maya in Hindu prespective

Under the influence of the three gunas, the soul is (1) misled by matter, and (2) subsequently entangled and entrapped. This tendency is termed maya (illusion).

Under maya's influence, the atman, (the soul) mistakenly identifies with the body. He accepts such thoughts as "I am white and I am a man," or "This is my house, my country, and my religion." Thus the illusioned soul identifies with the temporary body and everything connected to it, such as race, gender, family, nation, bank balance, and sectarian religion. Under this sense of false-ego (false-identity) the soul aspires to control and enjoy matter. However, in so doing he continuously serves lust, greed, and anger. In frustration he often redoubles his efforts and, compounding mistake upon mistake, only falls deeper into illusion.

In ignorance (tamas), he is fully convinced that right is wrong and wrong is right. In passion he is unsure, hesitant, sometimes enjoying and at others times repenting. Only in goodness does the soul begin to develop wisdom –to see things in the real light. Thus enlightenment means moving away from tamas towards sattva. By so doing, the soul gradually escapes the clutches of maya and moves towards liberation

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
Rosita: maybe in your uncles case it is one of Maya/avidhya.. I use the term without elucidation since I assume u are hindu and will understand my meaning.

You have assumed right. Maya is illusion. This is reality.

Maya in Hindu prespective

Under the influence of the three gunas, the soul is (1) misled by matter, and (2) subsequently entangled and entrapped. This tendency is termed maya (illusion).

Under maya's influence, the atman, (the soul) mistakenly identifies with the body. He accepts such thoughts as "I am white and I am a man," or "This is my house, my country, and my religion." Thus the illusioned soul identifies with the temporary body and everything connected to it, such as race, gender, family, nation, bank balance, and sectarian religion. Under this sense of false-ego (false-identity) the soul aspires to control and enjoy matter. However, in so doing he continuously serves lust, greed, and anger. In frustration he often redoubles his efforts and, compounding mistake upon mistake, only falls deeper into illusion.

In ignorance (tamas), he is fully convinced that right is wrong and wrong is right. In passion he is unsure, hesitant, sometimes enjoying and at others times repenting. Only in goodness does the soul begin to develop wisdom –to see things in the real light. Thus enlightenment means moving away from tamas towards sattva. By so doing, the soul gradually escapes the clutches of maya and moves towards liberation

See Rosita, here's my problem. If life is the illusion we speak of, then all facets of our lives are illusion filled, and that includes worship itself. Why should I bear responsibilites for partaking in illusion? After all I truly can't be blamed because I didn't "really" partake in anything. And this ignorance we speak of? Why do we call the exhibition of natural human trait ignorance? Can't we view it as our primordial rights? See I don't want to reason with the supreme aa weak, ignorant, and illusioned..I want to deal with him as a son to a father, as a mere man with all the faults, to him/her who is the perfect being.

And Cuzo Ksza, please note that you are indulging in Karma, whether you choose to call it that or not....remember you are letting your current actions determine your place in heaven or hell. Karma is a bytch....and we live it. Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by laker:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
Rosita: maybe in your uncles case it is one of Maya/avidhya.. I use the term without elucidation since I assume u are hindu and will understand my meaning.

You have assumed right. Maya is illusion. This is reality.

Maya in Hindu prespective

Under the influence of the three gunas, the soul is (1) misled by matter, and (2) subsequently entangled and entrapped. This tendency is termed maya (illusion).

Under maya's influence, the atman, (the soul) mistakenly identifies with the body. He accepts such thoughts as "I am white and I am a man," or "This is my house, my country, and my religion." Thus the illusioned soul identifies with the temporary body and everything connected to it, such as race, gender, family, nation, bank balance, and sectarian religion. Under this sense of false-ego (false-identity) the soul aspires to control and enjoy matter. However, in so doing he continuously serves lust, greed, and anger. In frustration he often redoubles his efforts and, compounding mistake upon mistake, only falls deeper into illusion.

In ignorance (tamas), he is fully convinced that right is wrong and wrong is right. In passion he is unsure, hesitant, sometimes enjoying and at others times repenting. Only in goodness does the soul begin to develop wisdom –to see things in the real light. Thus enlightenment means moving away from tamas towards sattva. By so doing, the soul gradually escapes the clutches of maya and moves towards liberation

See Rosita, here's my problem. If life is the illusion we speak of, then all facets of our lives are illusion filled, and that includes worship itself. Why should I bear responsibilites for partaking in illusion? After all I truly can't be blamed because I didn't "really" partake in anything. And this ignorance we speak of? Why do we call the exhibition of natural human trait ignorance? Can't we view it as our primordial rights? See I don't want to reason with the supreme aa weak, ignorant, and illusioned..I want to deal with him as a son to a father, as a mere man with all the faults, to him/her who is the perfect being.

And Cuzo Ksza, please note that you are indulging in Karma, whether you choose to call it that or not....remember you are letting your current actions determine your place in heaven or hell. Karma is a bytch....and we live it. Peace.

Laker: right you are, karma is a biotch...but she forces us to be responsible, I think
Rosita: you are right...but my problem would be that the version of Maya you put is just one dimension. Or if we go the avidya route, perhaps there are things we..humans--don't see that are there.Take for example, our misguided brother Kaz, thinking Eva is real..when in fact, she MAY BE--I hope she ain't on here under an assumed name and will sue me--for all we know, silicone filled.As to why I would automatically assume K was referring to those appendages that are often silicone enhanced, I dunno. forgive me and my man's assumptions.

I oney look at theh faces bai. :)

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
I oney look at theh faces bai. :)

Yeah, ok right cuzo Ksa...me and all them bais on GNI believe you...we does do the same thing too....look on the faces only....

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
I oney look at theh faces bai. :)

In dat case, you and I gonna have to fight this out. becuz with her, I must tell you that our guyanese gyals outdo her...like you won't believe. My JS mek her look like wun crabdawg me tell you. But you are right, I do look, like Laker, at the faces only. Do you remember the story about the CRETAN who said "ALL CRETANS ARE LIARS"? Was he lying?

quote:

Originally posted by laker:

quote:

Originally posted by Rosita:

quote:

Originally posted by khaleel:
Rosita: maybe in your uncles case it is one of Maya/avidhya.. I use the term without elucidation since I assume u are hindu and will understand my meaning.

You have assumed right. Maya is illusion. This is reality.

Maya in Hindu prespective

Under the influence of the three gunas, the soul is (1) misled by matter, and (2) subsequently entangled and entrapped. This tendency is termed maya (illusion).

Under maya's influence, the atman, (the soul) mistakenly identifies with the body. He accepts such thoughts as "I am white and I am a man," or "This is my house, my country, and my religion." Thus the illusioned soul identifies with the temporary body and everything connected to it, such as race, gender, family, nation, bank balance, and sectarian religion. Under this sense of false-ego (false-identity) the soul aspires to control and enjoy matter. However, in so doing he continuously serves lust, greed, and anger. In frustration he often redoubles his efforts and, compounding mistake upon mistake, only falls deeper into illusion.

In ignorance (tamas), he is fully convinced that right is wrong and wrong is right. In passion he is unsure, hesitant, sometimes enjoying and at others times repenting. Only in goodness does the soul begin to develop wisdom –to see things in the real light. Thus enlightenment means moving away from tamas towards sattva. By so doing, the soul gradually escapes the clutches of maya and moves towards liberation

See Rosita, here's my problem. If life is the illusion we speak of, then all facets of our lives are illusion filled, and that includes worship itself. Why should I bear responsibilites for partaking in illusion? After all I truly can't be blamed because I didn't "really" partake in anything. And this ignorance we speak of? Why do we call the exhibition of natural human trait ignorance? Can't we view it as our primordial rights? See I don't want to reason with the supreme aa weak, ignorant, and illusioned..I want to deal with him as a son to a father, as a mere man with all the faults, to him/her who is the perfect being.

And Cuzo Ksza, please note that you are indulging in Karma, whether you choose to call it that or not....remember you are letting your current actions determine your place in heaven or hell. Karma is a bytch....and we live it. Peace.

Your's is not a problem; it is the explaining of your reality in terms of the epistemology of another. Maya is the hindu methodology for explaining the idea of objectivity/subjectivity of our reality. The ancient theosophers/philosophers confronted the same dilemma that plagued natural philosophers from Plato to the moderns ( Berkley, Hume, Lock. Leibnez, Kant etc), the impossibility of the certitude of our knowledge.

Our visual systems is a triplex of reflectance matrix ( Primary colors) our audio range is from about 15Hz to 20kHZ, our tactile tolerance form -20 degrees to about 97 degrees but there are more colors in the electromagnetic spectrum's, lowe and higher frequencies than we can hear and while there is a lower limit to cold in the universe there is no upper limit to hot! And this is just perusing the phyical world where we ought to know with most certainty. Our mental realm is fraught with problems in coming to grips with what is real or not.

Everyone explain things in their own way and most of the time we cannot integrate these separate systems of beliefs( scientific vs religious or intra religion explanation of reality)

D2...I was responding to Rosita's comments, presuably from the Hindu point of view.....I see that you wrote a mouthful, but I pray the relevance is thinly veiled.

Look how can we speak of a higher reality when we are unable to comprehend our most intimate reality, albeit flawed? If we are incapable of realizing a higher reality, then why bother? It will be an exercise in futility.

quote:

Originally posted by laker:
See Rosita, here's my problem. If life is the illusion we speak of, then all facets of our lives are illusion filled, and that includes worship itself. Why should I bear responsibilites for partaking in illusion? After all I truly can't be blamed because I didn't "really" partake in anything. And this ignorance we speak of? Why do we call the exhibition of natural human trait ignorance? Can't we view it as our primordial rights? See I don't want to reason with the supreme aa weak, ignorant, and illusioned..I want to deal with him as a son to a father, as a mere man with all the faults, to him/her who is the perfect being.

Lake bhai it really hard to figure out what you really want from this perfect being we call god. This is a true story:

A little girl at age ten didn't believe in God and when anything went wrong she blamed God that it was his fault (at that stage she addressed God as male).

In her first year in high school she made new friends, but always felt like the black sheep, always wanting attention or to feel part of a group. In order to feel accepted, she decided that she will do exactly what her friends were doing. She started taking snacks from the Vendor in the school, on trust (ie. she/they will pay at the end of the week). The items added up to $10.00 (this was in the late 70s)and at the end of the week she didn't have the money to pay the Vendor. The Vendor threatened to go to the principal office and have the girl expelled. The girl was very naive and coming from a very strict upbringing she was scared out of her wits.

The morning of which her fate was to be decided at school, as she was walking along the road to get to school, her head bent, she prayed feverently to God. She begged and pleaded for a miracle to save her from this disgrace and that she would never do such a thing a again.

As she was passing the temple where she goes for weekly service, in the entrance way of the temple, neatly folded was a $20.00 bill. That girl's life changed forever from that day forward.

Sorry if this sound long winded but it's a true story that I could not resist repeating.

Nice story until the end. Why was she going to the temple every week for service when she didn't believe in God and always blamed God for everything that went wrong?