Indian low-caste Hindus, nomads convert en masse.

About 50,000 Indian low-caste Hindus and nomadic tribespeople converted to Buddhism before a vast crowd on Sunday in the hope of escaping the rigidity of the ancient Hindu caste system and finding a life of dignity.

Monks in orange and saffron robes administered religious vows to the converts as about half a million spectators, mostly Buddhists, cheered the ceremony at a horseracing track in downtown Mumbai.

Some of the converts were low-caste Hindus once considered as "untouchables" by the higher castes, but most were members of India's numerous nomadic tribes.

Many of the tribespeople had their faces painted and ritually flagellated themselves before being asked by the monks to give up their practices and follow the non-violent path of Buddhism.

"Whatever may have been your religion until now, from today you will take refuge in the teachings of the Lord Buddha," one told them.

At a signal from the monk conducting the proceedings, the converts, some of them visibly emaciated or carrying babies in their arms, stood up, took off their shoes and with folded hands repeated Buddhist chants.

Hindu scriptures separate people into Brahmin priests, warriors, farmers, labourers, and those beyond definition -- called "Dalits".

These low-caste Hindus, making up about a sixth of India's 1.1 billion people, were once considered "untouchable", performing the most menial and degrading jobs.

CULTURAL CHANGE

While the Indian constitution forbids caste discrimination, and spectacular economic success and exposure to Western culture have remoulded many social paradigms, the caste system has persisted, above all in villages.

Dalits are still often beaten or killed if they use a well or worship at a temple reserved for upper castes.

"I'm here because people from our village have decided to become Buddhist," said Santosh Mane, a landless labourer from a village about two hours' drive from Mumbai.

For decades, conversion has been a sensitive issue in India. Right-wing Hindus have accused missionaries, especially Christian preachers, of converting poor Hindus with inducements such as free schooling and health care.

But Christians, who have long demanded greater rights for Dalits, say those who convert often want to escape the oppressive caste system.

Hindus account for 80 percent of India's population. Muslims account for 13 percent, Christians less than 3 percent and minorities such as Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and Parsis the rest

Not defending hinduism here, or going against the poster.IT happens. Muslims and Christians have used the caste system as an inducement for conversion. But who states that conversion changes the caste system? It never does except in few cases. The social stigma still remains.
I note how orientalists like to talk about the 'caste' system of India. but what of our caste system here? How many people literally thnk that any american can grow up to be president? Or even a general in the army? The caste system exists in every culture, declared or not.
In many eastern muslim countries, a "sayyid" marries only a "sayyid" and there is the concept of "kafaa". If you don't know what it is, let me leave it alone...when I was to marry a somali woman, she was more concerned with my ancestry and possible slave status than with my saintliness....

One can say LOVE is truly blind and indiscretion is the nature of mankind.

Dara

In America the opportunity exists for anyone (could be born dirt poor) to make something worthwhile of themself...you also have immigrants who came here poor becoming congressmen and even running for the senate.

True Raymond. IN India now, its happening though to a lesser extent. my grouse is that people talk about the caste system as if it is peculiar to india only...and the example you cited is a good one why i choose to live in the US or canada. Shoot, in Saudi I did not even count. WOrst caste system I have seen.

quote:

Muslims and Christians have used the caste system as an inducement for conversion.

Or is it the other way around, the low castes realize that in Islam there is only one class.
Certian pratices by muslims who live in the uncivilized coutries are sometimes opposite to what the Holy Quran teaches.

quote:

Originally posted by raymond:
Dara

In America the opportunity exists for anyone (could be born dirt poor) to make something worthwhile of themself...you also have immigrants who came here poor becoming congressmen and even running for the senate.

Bro, it is not always so for everyone for many reasons. You and I do not come with the historical baggage of racism and oppression so we resent no one, have no grudges and laugh at every joke, even the ones calling us wet backs. There are those who resent some jobs because it was used to demean their family ( ie baby sitting, cleaning etc). Further, the residual effects on racism in this society do not affect us as much as it does others because we are often seen as "good house ni.ggers" who do not buck the system and always aim to please. As immigrants we know poverty, know about not having and what is given to us, even in a trickle, is a grateful blessing.

White America has really brutalized the black man and Indigenous of this land. That they still lag behind in so many ways while we get along a little better is not because of our great fortitude and their laziness. It is because of our innocence of the history of naked brutality and our gratefulness for having food in our bellies and money in our pocket when otherwise there would be none. It is also at the expense of struggles we know nothing of and for which those whose mothers fathers siblings died get only our contempt as thanks.

D2

I have always felt that most immigrants do not understand Afro Americans or the Native Americans.

Sometimes we may blurt out that how come "us" can do so much better than "them" and they were born here...not realising the baggage they have that you speak of...white America knows about that baggage, and when the opprotunity arises, consciously or subconsciously, they use that to their advantage...Afro Americans and Whites have a relationship that immigrants would never fully grasp

I agree in theory. But why did the early Muslims only want the Quraysh to be those from whom the caliphs were selected? Why do Muslims take such great pride in the fact that bilal was the first muadhin..and then if they read "1001 nights" they seek the rankest racism there is. Uncivilized? At the time of 1001 nights they were supposedly at the zenith of their rise. Christianity, under the byzantines, and Islam under the omayyads were truly discriminatory..Judaism no less so under the maccabees....Yet, in all their scriputures we see wonderful views of treating the other. I'd like to defend Islam and can do so using the text..the problem is that when text and practise differ, what right do I have to stand and say "but the book says so." Does my interlocutor not have the right to say, "but then why do the actions of the people so markedly differ from their text?" Of course I would have no answer when someone points out a religion that is not in the same pickle.

quote:

Originally posted by Chief:

quote:

Muslims and Christians have used the caste system as an inducement for conversion.

Or is it the other way around, the low castes realize that in Islam there is only one class.
Certian pratices by muslims who live in the uncivilized coutries are sometimes opposite to what the Holy Quran teaches.

quote:

Originally posted by D2:

quote:

Originally posted by raymond:
Dara

In America the opportunity exists for anyone (could be born dirt poor) to make something worthwhile of themself...you also have immigrants who came here poor becoming congressmen and even running for the senate.

Bro, it is not always so for everyone for many reasons. You and I do not come with the historical baggage of racism and oppression so we resent no one, have no grudges and laugh at every joke, even the ones calling us wet backs. There are those who resent some jobs because it was used to demean their family ( ie baby sitting, cleaning etc). Further, the residual effects on racism in this society do not affect us as much as it does others because we are often seen as "good house ni.ggers" who do not buck the system and always aim to please. As immigrants we know poverty, know about not having and what is given to us, even in a trickle, is a grateful blessing.

White America has really brutalized the black man and Indigenous of this land. That they still lag behind in so many ways while we get along a little better is not because of our great fortitude and their laziness. It is because of our innocence of the history of naked brutality and our gratefulness for having food in our bellies and money in our pocket when otherwise there would be none. It is also at the expense of struggles we know nothing of and for which those whose mothers fathers siblings died get only our contempt as thanks.

Hmm...good point..when last did I hear of an autochtonous general? even Colonel? Doctor? Laywer? Senator? And then we talk of liberating Iraq? YEt, i do agree with Raymond that here at least for most of us...even with the stereotypes, there is hope. Here I am a house ******, in Saudi I don't even count. Ask the filipina house maids who are raped by the 5 times a day praying people. Am I making this up? nah..I know. I lived there. I saw the filipina complainants. Part of my research topic for a future book.

quote:

Originally posted by rough:
D2

I have always felt that most immigrants do not understand Afro Americans or the Native Americans.

Sometimes we may blurt out that how come "us" can do so much better than "them" and they were born here...not realising the baggage they have that you speak of...white America knows about that baggage, and when the opprotunity arises, consciously or subconsciously, they use that to their advantage...Afro Americans and Whites have a relationship that immigrants would never fully grasp

True dat. To this day, in the unive, if a black kid says he wants to be a lawyer, there are ooks and aahs as if it is so truly spectacular; if an immigrant indian or vietmanmese says it..no big deal. That tells me a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

True dat. To this day, in the unive, if a black kid says he wants to be a lawyer, there are ooks and aahs as if it is so truly spectacular; if an immigrant indian or vietmanmese says it..no big deal. That tells me a lot.

Maybe it's because after school, when an indian or vietnamese is busy doing homework, the black kid is still hanging out on the courts or rapping with rastas at some street corner.

[

Maybe it's because after school, when an indian or vietnamese is busy doing homework, the black kid is still hanging out on the courts or rapping with rastas at some street corner.[/QUOTE]

Good, though painful, point. but it has a problem..the indians and vietnamese who ask their kids to do that are like the black folk who ask their kids too. Black kids do hang out and do crap...but so do viet kids and indo kids..in TO i saw fricking GANGS of these...there is a predilection in school fo rteachers to assume negative things about black kids.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
... Here I am a house ******, in Saudi I don't even count. Ask the filipina house maids who are raped by the 5 times a day praying people. Am I making this up? nah..I know. I lived there. I saw the filipina complainants. Part of my research topic for a future book.

Nah yu aint making it up...if they do it to a muslim woman...it's death for either him or her...to a foreign non-muslim...she only gets expelled.

In India if you kiss a woman in public...it's like crime...yet Bollywood women poses 90% naked on magazine covers...also, yu can piss on the street...and less fuss than a burp in the West.

quote:

Originally posted by D2:
White America has really brutalized the black man and Indigenous of this land. That they still lag behind in so many ways while we get along a little better is not because of our great fortitude and their laziness.

D2...we can say that a million times...tell me it aint different anyway...why they lag behind in Guyana and everywhere...Afica lags behind in totality....face facts and don't fall into excuses....it's all we always hear. Now don't jump on that "racist" band waggon.