Lay mans version

Dara version part 1

Dara Version Part 2

I have posted this article many times in the past. I am not a scholar to endorse it as being correct but I think its a darn good argument for sighting of the moon.

Now if Dara can come up with a similar article for his positon, that would be great.

Abu: this article is what makes Jews and Christians RIGHTFULLY poop on Muslims. Hamza makes his religion one wherein he relies on hadith to advocate a nonsensical argument. The first rule of logic in ANY disputation/argumentation is that BOTH parties have to agree on what they will accept as proof. IN the case of hadith, the position is not a unanimous one so he cannot use that as proof, especially when not supported by the Qur'an
Now this part about the prophet supposedly advising us againts following the Jews and Christians is egregious prevarication at its worst..considering that our prayer, our fasting, our zakat all have roots in those religions (he may wish to dispute this..but can't...). As for the intercalation he talks about, it came AFTER islam, not before. So much for his knowledge and attempt to denigrate Jews.
My positon is a simple one: all this crap about what is worship is created by him and his hadith...when the law even among the muhadithun is that: NO ACT OF WORSHIP IS LEGAL UNLESS LEGISLATED BY GOD. No man, no prophet can make that.
The Qur'an--if we go for versions--talks about the MOON as a factor for dating. THis is agreed. SCIENCE..modern science..dictates that we don't have to SIGHT..especially when weather could interfere with VISIBILITY but that such interference will not interfere with the POSITION OF THE MOON ITSELF (.i.e. whether we see it or not, it is still there). If we must somehow claim "logic" (as did T.I.--out of good intention, earlier)..then why stop it at nations? Let us go to villages...let us go to counties..this is clearly not doable, so the question that comes up..who ruled on what constitutes a difference of locale? If it was not divine, then MAN is putting HIS science to impact on a supposed act of worship?
On the other hand, if we follow the logical progress from reading the Quran properly, we simply consult the American Naval Academy (acceptable since that type of knowledge comes through the same condition as tawatur)--and have a uniform date.
BTW: Hamza Yusuf may impress a lot of people but there is a reason why he is a chaplain not a scholar. THis is the man who when asked if a Muslim can become an american citizen, had to go consult a mauritanian shaykh. This is the type of person that PJ stereotypes as the average Muslim when he spouts his trash. I know your question did not seek this part..but I am surprised that of all people, hamza Yusuf should be presented as someone whose opinion is worthwhile. BTW, Zaituna institute is a sufi hangout...he tries to mix sufism and law..it can't work--one deals with what is called marifa, the other with sharia.

Dara you miss my point. It is a well written end of story. I didnt expect you to buy the story.

Now, produce something of that caliber from your point of view.

Dont just attack the man and hadith

quote:

As for the intercalation he talks about, it came AFTER islam, not before. So much for his knowledge and attempt to denigrate Jews.

From my knowledge of science, not islam you pissin in the wind.

The first scientifically accurate calender (in use today) was the islamic calender.

two points: while muslims would like to claim this honor, as they usually like to do for just about every scientific discovery, the first accurate calendar was NOT the "islamic" calendar. The lunar system was long in practice, even before Islam, among the arabs. Who were notedly INFERIOR to the indians, greeks, egyptians on the aspect of astronomy.
The so called islamic calendar CANNOT be accurate when people rely on sighting.
Its accuracy...can only be ascertained when we follow calculations. Once again, the rules of deduction applied to the QUr'an are simple: i keep saying that the Q talks about the MOON, not about its sighting. That means that at a time when its sighting was the method of dealing with it, it was fine. But if we regard it as a book that takes regard of science in its world view, then it has to incorporate modern understanding of science. If this is not so, then the Q is worthless.
U r right about Hamza Yusuf..I ought not to diss the brudda...but i take special joy in doing so because he presents himself as a scholar, saying all that the REp. rightwingers wanted him to say, and just before 9/11 saying totally different things.
I take umbrage at his arguments because even hadith scholars (among whom north americans only group him), when constructing an argument, do it in such a way that it compatible with USULI acceptability. He does not even do that.
He also likes to portray himself as knowledge in comparative religoin without having studied the subject..you cannot be a comparative religion specialist on judaism by studying it in Mauritania, any more than some of the musilm haters on this board can be experts in islam by studying our religon in a born again seminary.

quote:

The so called islamic calendar CANNOT be accurate when people rely on sighting.

Accuracy and reliability is two different things. You seems to be a little lacking in the scientfic department.

Check your pm

quote:

Originally posted by Abu Jihad:

quote:

The so called islamic calendar CANNOT be accurate when people rely on sighting.

Accuracy and reliability is two different things. You seems to be a little lacking in the scientfic department.

Let us assume that I am..for argument sake, despite the fact that in my science courses I was an A student, in either case, the SIGHTING insistence in Islam denies the reliability of the whole system. WE know about the times of prayers for the year ahead because we CALCULATE, not because of the sighting of the SUN or the MOON even though the Qur'an talks abou the prayer in relation to those times. The maghrib is the most problematic. Yet the scholars don't insist on this....interesting..this is why Islamic law is best left to the usulis, not to others..

quote:

Yet the scholars don't insist on this....interesting..this is why Islamic law is best left to the usulis, not to others..

Lets leave it now, cause you didnt read the article and missed my point totally.

Now, to business, we go eat some good guyanese foold this weekend or wah.

I will...call you guys later. I don't want to do so now and then change plans....I will call, InshaAllah. Lewwe watch the weather too..I rant hate this snow..

Will review the articles when I get back to Sd in full. I just can't deal with the idiot. U got anything on the subject from sherman jackson? Actually, when I get back I will check. If anyone reading this post has access to index islamicus (avail. only on some university electronic sites), please do a check and let me know.

I think Yousuf al qaradawi came out in support of the calculation method a few years ago..and whether one likes the man or not, he is one of the greatest jurists of the present time.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
I will...call you guys later. I don't want to do so now and then change plans....I will call, InshaAllah. Lewwe watch the weather too..I rant hate this snow..

no prob. the snow rant put a damper pan all the activity this weekend.

quote:

Will review the articles when I get back to Sd in full. I just can't deal with the idiot.

The man is a 9/11 opportunist. Just after his Bush debacle, he came to the Islamic foundation to give a kutbah and one arab in the back jump up and heckle the man as he about to start. Guess what, da was the end a deh kutbah for him.

It looks like Bushie dumped him since, so he a badtalk the man at any opportunity.

His presentation skills is his asset. A lot of people say that he gets carried away with it and end up pulling a lot of crap out a he arse.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
WE know about the times of prayers for the year ahead because we CALCULATE, not because of the sighting of the SUN or the MOON even though the Qur'an talks abou the prayer in relation to those times. The maghrib is the most problematic. Yet the scholars don't insist on this....interesting..this is why Islamic law is best left to the usulis, not to others..

And those salaahs are more important than eid.

quote:

Originally posted by Abu Jihad:

quote:

Will review the articles when I get back to Sd in full. I just can't deal with the idiot.

The man is a 9/11 opportunist. Just after his Bush debacle, he came to the Islamic foundation to give a kutbah and one arab in the back jump up and heckle the man as he about to start. Guess what, da was the end a deh kutbah for him.

It looks like Bushie dumped him since, so he a badtalk the man at any opportunity.

His presentation skills is his asset. A lot of people say that he gets carried away with it and end up pulling a lot of crap out a he arse.

He apparently is very charismatic. And one cannot fault him for that. But he did pull a lot of stuff and his lack of scholarship made a lot of people jump on him.
As for the Admin jumping on people...we both know that their minions will assail even the innocent. WHich is why I applaud Faisal Abdul Rauf. He is a good man...as is his wife Daisy Khan. No games to play. Wrote a nice book. "what is right about islam". Same goes for that sister with the school in NYC..Forgot her name...wears the hijab..a truly good sister, but the haters jumped on her...this current admin hates ANYTHING islamic..look at the tariq ramadan debacle, the yusuf islam debacle...

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
WE know about the times of prayers for the year ahead because we CALCULATE, not because of the sighting of the SUN or the MOON even though the Qur'an talks abou the prayer in relation to those times. The maghrib is the most problematic. Yet the scholars don't insist on this....interesting..this is why Islamic law is best left to the usulis, not to others..

And those salaahs are more important than eid.

BTW, I assume most of you bros know that during the omayyad caliphate, the people used to come for the prayer and many would leave when the imam got up for the khutba..to show that they were opposed to the omayyads.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
BTW, I assume most of you bros know that during the omayyad caliphate, the people used to come for the prayer and many would leave when the imam got up for the khutba..to show that they were opposed to the omayyads.

It is very difficult listening to someone give a khutbah or a speech when you know their bad ways personally. Although they may be saying something good, the only thing that rings in your ears is "you hypocrite!!!". Like the person that I alluded to earlier. I walk the other way when I see him so as to avoid him.

Can u imagine if Jimmy Swaggart was a Muslim? Or Pat Robertson? Or Franklin Graham? We would have heard so much about hypocrisy. ah but....who cares.
This is why one of the most beautiful verses of hte Qur'an for me lies in its anti polemic
The Jews and C's say "none shall enter heaven unless he be a J or C." That is their unlearned conjecture. Say provide your proof if you are telling the truth. RATHER WHOEVER COMMITS HIMSELF TO GOD AND DOES GOOD< with him is his reward....
The Qur'an hereby negates any religious identity, and rather focuses on thought and action...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
This is why one of the most beautiful verses of hte Qur'an for me lies in its anti polemic
The Jews and C's say "none shall enter heaven unless he be a J or C." That is their unlearned conjecture. Say provide your proof if you are telling the truth. RATHER WHOEVER COMMITS HIMSELF TO GOD AND DOES GOOD< with him is his reward....
The Qur'an hereby negates any religious identity, and rather focuses on thought and action...

That is how the Qur'an stays dear to me. And why I have trouble with the contents of some of the ahadiths.

Franklin Graham will be his own undoing.