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ksazma
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Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
Don't we need to differentiate between God and His creations? Is it unreasonable to see God as superior while seeing His creations not quite as such? Shouldn't God be that existence that is free from wutlissness?
That would suggest God did not create man in His image.


I don't believe that God created man in His image. We may possess some features and attributes of God but I don't think that it is possible for any of us to possess all the features and attributes of Him. That is why He is God and we are not. Forgive me for using the masculine for referring to God but that is how I see Him.
antabanta
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Registered:: September 13, 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
Don't we need to differentiate between God and His creations? Is it unreasonable to see God as superior while seeing His creations not quite as such? Shouldn't God be that existence that is free from wutlissness?
That would suggest God did not create man in His image.


I don't believe that God created man in His image. We may possess some features and attributes of God but I don't think that it is possible for any of us to possess all the features and attributes of Him. That is why He is God and we are not. Forgive me for using the masculine for referring to God but that is how I see Him.
Do you know the origin of that saying?
ksazma
Senior Member
Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do you know the origin of that saying?


What saying?
antabanta
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Registered:: September 13, 2001
Posts: 14912
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do you know the origin of that saying?


What saying?
God made man in His image.
ksazma
Senior Member
Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10270
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quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do you know the origin of that saying?


What saying?
God made man in His image.


It is in Genesis where it says that God said; "Let us make man in our image". I don't know if that is the origin, however.
dara shikoh
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quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Otherwise who decides where the misunderstanding lies?


Now you hit it right on. WHo decides? the problem is that we like to "decide" instead of leaving the differences of opinion as equally valid interpretations of religion. IN such difference and allowance to differ lies peace..rather than the urge to create orthodoxy..for then we have the creation of heretics..and i need not get into the history of what has happened historically to those deemed as heretics, of the millions of innocents among them...check a book called "when jesus became god" by R. Rubenstein. Innocents were killed in the purge of those who had "false" belief.
Why do I need to read that book? The issue is blatantly evident all around.
The previous point I was trying to get to is that your post itself is guilty of assuming a base reference for which belief is incorrect or not. Who establishes that base?[/QUOTE]

I am speaking of abrahamic religions. The base..without a doubt..is the Hebrew bible, the Torah, NOT the Tanakh, i.e. the base must lie in the Pentateuch which Islam and Chri. recognize as their protoevangelion.
dara shikoh
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Let me, in my untramelled arrogance, divest you of some of your misconceptions. Yes, I am a specialist. And yes, I do know that there are always those who seek to take on a scholar in the hope of somehow winning an argument. Problem is that they fail in the eyes of all except themselves. YOu started to get personal...why this need if your argument was so clear?
My staement was made at the beginning to show a dimension of hinduism that NO other religion has. That "good" is more elastic..and pragmatically so. And my take was on Krshna. This was because of Krshna/ busines about who his real mother was. YOU sought to take this discussion to a field wherein you thought you could somehow come forth as an intellectual: instead you have enabled me to put forth that Judaism is the mother religion of all abrahamic religions, and all constructs must therefore be intertextually related to that religion and its scripture. End of story.
As for my ego: I do admit, it is jumbo sized. Problem is that I have the ammo to back it up.
YOur question as to why you should read a book: well, the true scholar reads before s/he speaks.
dara shikoh
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Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do you know the origin of that saying?


What saying?
God made man in His image.


u r right on. the misunderstanding and mistranslation comes from that. The Q take, as you know, "in the best of molds"..

It is in Genesis where it says that God said; "Let us make man in our image". I don't know if that is the origin, however.
dara shikoh
Senior Member
Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12231
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
Don't we need to differentiate between God and His creations? Is it unreasonable to see God as superior while seeing His creations not quite as such? Shouldn't God be that existence that is free from wutlissness?
That would suggest God did not create man in His image.


I don't believe that God created man in His image. We may possess some features and attributes of God but I don't think that it is possible for any of us to possess all the features and attributes of Him. That is why He is God and we are not. Forgive me for using the masculine for referring to God but that is how I see Him.


K: this is why some say that the term "one" or in islam "ahad" is inappropriate as a translation. Because One is not only a numerical reference, it is also one of uniqueness..that there is NONE like god in any way, shape, or form.
ksazma
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Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
K: this is why some say that the term "one" or in islam "ahad" is inappropriate as a translation. Because One is not only a numerical reference, it is also one of uniqueness..that there is NONE like god in any way, shape, or form.


The Qur'an in a way does not support the idea that God is in heaven. Muslims believe that heaven is not big enough to hold God. The Qur'an teaches that God extends over the heavens and earths. So no one really sits on the right hand of God since God does not really have hands. Well, this is Muslim belief. :)
dara shikoh
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
K: this is why some say that the term "one" or in islam "ahad" is inappropriate as a translation. Because One is not only a numerical reference, it is also one of uniqueness..that there is NONE like god in any way, shape, or form.


The Qur'an in a way does not support the idea that God is in heaven. Muslims believe that heaven is not big enough to hold God. The Qur'an teaches that God extends over the heavens and earths. So no one really sits on the right hand of God since God does not really have hands. Well, this is Muslim belief. :)

Kaz: this is subjet to interpretatin. Huwa allahdhik khalaqa lakum maa fi'l ard jameean thumastawaa ila samaa...yes, seven. but often the term 'samaa" is used to mean heavens. The entire idea of putting limits etc is problematic...it would seem however, the like Judaism and early christianity, the idea of a transcendent god is what matters."heaven" rather than a place limited by physical borders seems, in some takes, to be one of dimension that is beyond full human conceptualization.
ksazma
Senior Member
Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Kaz: this is subjet to interpretatin. Huwa allahdhik khalaqa lakum maa fi'l ard jameean thumastawaa ila samaa...yes, seven. but often the term 'samaa" is used to mean heavens. The entire idea of putting limits etc is problematic...it would seem however, the like Judaism and early christianity, the idea of a transcendent god is what matters."heaven" rather than a place limited by physical borders seems, in some takes, to be one of dimension that is beyond full human conceptualization.


Exactly.
dara shikoh
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Where de h is chief? happy juma all.
ICIP
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Registered:: March 21, 2007
Posts: 2302
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quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
Forgive me for using the masculine for referring to God but that is how I see Him.


quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
So no one really sits on the right hand of God since God does not really have hands. Well, this is Muslim belief. :)


I am confused - you see "him" without "hands"?
antabanta
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Registered:: September 13, 2001
Posts: 14912
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quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Let me, in my untramelled arrogance, divest you of some of your misconceptions. Yes, I am a specialist. And yes, I do know that there are always those who seek to take on a scholar in the hope of somehow winning an argument. Problem is that they fail in the eyes of all except themselves. YOu started to get personal...why this need if your argument was so clear?
My staement was made at the beginning to show a dimension of hinduism that NO other religion has. That "good" is more elastic..and pragmatically so. And my take was on Krshna. This was because of Krshna/ busines about who his real mother was. YOU sought to take this discussion to a field wherein you thought you could somehow come forth as an intellectual: instead you have enabled me to put forth that Judaism is the mother religion of all abrahamic religions, and all constructs must therefore be intertextually related to that religion and its scripture. End of story.
As for my ego: I do admit, it is jumbo sized. Problem is that I have the ammo to back it up.
YOur question as to why you should read a book: well, the true scholar reads before s/he speaks.
I humbly reccommend you trammel your arrogance because it takes little more than literacy to become a specialist in religion.
I have no reason to believe you're a scholar and if you expect that brazen declaration to engender fear .... well then ... then you need to escape that academic cave you've been hiding in and welcome to the world of real men.
Getting personal?? Nothing of the sort. I'm just doing my regular boy scout good deed and trying to help a brudda out who seems to have something worth saying but is losing his message in conceit.
Pragmatism forced me to give up my dreams of being a scholar a long time ago. So you're only half right. Not being a true scholar, a fake scholar, or a scholar in any shape or form, I prefer to think instead of read before I speak and prefer to speak my own thoughts instead of those of others.
Now... My entry into this discussion was at the question the creation of man in the image of the creator. Do not all religions preach in one way or another that man is made from the essence of whatever creator that religion holds supreme? Isn't something that is created from the essence of another a reflection from whence it came?

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ksazma
Senior Member
Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10270
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quote:
Originally posted by ICIP:
I am confused - you see "him" without "hands"?


You are always confused. :) Seeing God as Him does not require that He has hands like us. If that was the case, even if God was her, she would also have hands.
ksazma
Senior Member
Location: Every action is judged by intention - Muhammad
Registered:: April 04, 2005
Posts: 10270
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quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do not all religions preach in one way or another that man is made from the essence of whatever creator that religion holds supreme?


Islam does not. It teaches that there is none like God. He is unique in all sense of the word. We possess very minute atributes of Him. Also, all together, we still don't come anywhere close to His status. All together, we still cannot another living organism while alone, He can create all living organisms and He can do it with just a single word. That is Islamic teachings.
dara shikoh
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.[/QUOTE]I humbly reccommend you trammel your arrogance because it takes little more than literacy to become a specialist in religion.
I have no reason to believe you're a scholar and if you expect that brazen declaration to engender fear ....

I see Kaz has gently tried to not expose your ignorance. Since I am admittedly arrogant, let me go further and tell you that if you are NOT a scholar in the field, I know not whwer you get yoru concept of what it takes to be a scholar in religion. I don't disagree with you that at some divinity schools it is so. But at secular universities, some seminaries, islamic universities, hindu colleges, and definitely yeshivas, it takes logic and knowledge. YOu have just proven why you are not a scholar: your assumption about the divine in every one.
It never ceases to amaze me how nonpspecialists in a field always want to make rules, regulations and assumptions.
It is certainly commendable to want to express your thoughts instead of those of others. This however presupposes your intellect is solid. I shall refrain from the temptation to throw in a barb and simply say this: perhaps you are good and outstanding in whatever field you may have chosen for your profession/occupation. Religion is manifestly NOT it. YOur words therefore should come in the form of inquiry, not opinion.
dara shikoh
Senior Member
Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12231
Posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post  
quote:
Originally posted by ksazma:
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
Do not all religions preach in one way or another that man is made from the essence of whatever creator that religion holds supreme?


Islam does not. It teaches that there is none like God. He is unique in all sense of the word. We possess very minute atributes of Him. Also, all together, we still don't come anywhere close to His status. All together, we still cannot another living organism while alone, He can create all living organisms and He can do it with just a single word. That is Islamic teachings.


Thanks Kaz. As I pointed out earlier, even in Judaism and early christianity this was NOT so, i.e. the concept of divine in man. WHich is why Adam and EVe could not stay in the divine presence even. WHich is why God could not show himself to Moses. Early Xity knew the concept of "adoptionism" wherein it stated that Jesus was so pure that god "adopted" him. Not that he was of divine essence. Of course, later xity took a different position.
Hinduism is one of the religions that PROVEABLY goes with Antabanta's formulation from the very inception. Some later outgrowths of hinduism tried to incorporate it but did not do so with the intellectual maturity of the mother religion.

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antabanta
Senior Member
Registered:: September 13, 2001
Posts: 14912
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quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
.
I humbly reccommend you trammel your arrogance because it takes little more than literacy to become a specialist in religion.
I have no reason to believe you're a scholar and if you expect that brazen declaration to engender fear ....

quote:
I see Kaz has gently tried to not expose your ignorance. Since I am admittedly arrogant, let me go further and tell you that if you are NOT a scholar in the field, I know not whwer you get yoru concept of what it takes to be a scholar in religion. I don't disagree with you that at some divinity schools it is so. But at secular universities, some seminaries, islamic universities, hindu colleges, and definitely yeshivas, it takes logic and knowledge. YOu have just proven why you are not a scholar: your assumption about the divine in every one.
It never ceases to amaze me how nonpspecialists in a field always want to make rules, regulations and assumptions.
It is certainly commendable to want to express your thoughts instead of those of others. This however presupposes your intellect is solid. I shall refrain from the temptation to throw in a barb and simply say this: perhaps you are good and outstanding in whatever field you may have chosen for your profession/occupation. Religion is manifestly NOT it. YOur words therefore should come in the form of inquiry, not opinion.

Aha!!! I see... so you claim to have knowledge and logic. Does that make you unique? And how did you acquire your knowledge if not by being literate?
I proved I'm not a scholar quite a while ago. Why are you presuming only scholars can determine whether the divine is in every one or not?
Exactly what qualities do you need to be good in religion other than literacy and speech to acquire knowledge and logic?
Do you take the Islamic story of creation literally or figuratively?
Why would you presuppose my intellect to not be solid and yours to be exceptionally so?
Kaz has been here long enough to know gentleness is not required. Please indulge yourself with any barb you please.
Are you exposed daily to non-specialists who want to make rules, regulations, and assumptions? If not, isn't that needless melodrama?
dara shikoh
Senior Member
Location: wherever there is good food
Registered:: February 15, 2007
Posts: 12231
Posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post  
quote:
Originally posted by antabanta:
quote:
Originally posted by dara shikoh:
.
I humbly reccommend you trammel your arrogance because it takes little more than literacy to become a specialist in religion.
I have no reason to believe you're a scholar and if you expect that brazen declaration to engender fear ....

quote:
I see Kaz has gently tried to not expose your ignorance. Since I am admittedly arrogant, let me go further and tell you that if you are NOT a scholar in the field, I know not whwer you get yoru concept of what it takes to be a scholar in religion. I don't disagree with you that at some divinity schools it is so. But at secular universities, some seminaries, islamic universities, hindu colleges, and definitely yeshivas, it takes logic and knowledge. YOu have just proven why you are not a scholar: your assumption about the divine in every one.
It never ceases to amaze me how nonpspecialists in a field always want to make rules, regulations and assumptions.
It is certainly commendable to want to express your thoughts instead of those of others. This however presupposes your intellect is solid. I shall refrain from the temptation to throw in a barb and simply say this: perhaps you are good and outstanding in whatever field you may have chosen for your profession/occupation. Religion is manifestly NOT it. YOur words therefore should come in the form of inquiry, not opinion.

Aha!!! I see... so you claim to have knowledge and logic. Does that make you unique? And how did you acquire your knowledge if not by being literate?
I proved I'm not a scholar quite a while ago. Why are you presuming only scholars can determine whether the divine is in every one or not?
Exactly what qualities do you need to be good in religion other than literacy and speech to acquire knowledge and logic?
Do you take the Islamic story of creation literally or figuratively?
Why would you presuppose my intellect to not be solid and yours to be exceptionally so?
Kaz has been here long enough to know gentleness is not required. Please indulge yourself with any barb you please.
Are you exposed daily to non-specialists who want to make rules, regulations, and assumptions? If not, isn't that needless melodrama?


I fear you are tryint to somehow give the impression you are rather smart. See, one of the aspects of my specialty is dealing with texts, and ascertaining the intention of the writer etc.
Now...literacy is a prerequisite for any learning...a medical doctor must necc. be literate...and a literature specialist is also literate...but the KNOWLEDGE required for their different specialites is quite differnt. Is that too difficult for you to understand?
I notice that a lot of people, since i started talking about hinduism, are trying to start some sort of interaction to prove themselves smart. Why so?
If you are admittedly NOT a scholar, why are you attempting to engage in that which is clearly beyond your level? Sheesh, you'd think that one would know the aspect of COMPREHENSIVE exams takes care of your argument about literacy. Do come with something better.
Regarding the Qur'anic creation story: it is on several levels, some take it literally, others go deeper and see it as a symbolic, in that "adam" for example, is a reference to humankind and not to a specific person, since the word "adom" basically means "manling". I don't see what that has to do with literacy...I hope you are not confusing this with literalness..
Literacy...the ability to read...but the arabic language, the proper understanding of a text lies in an understanding of the language that is beyond the reading skills only.
As for my superior intellect: it is not a presuppositon on my part: you demonstrated it by your posting on this thread. I know mine is exceptional because my peers have paid me the highest accolades. Unfortunately superior intellect is NOT necc. indicative of humility..and I never claimed to be humble.
Do I deal on a daily basis with the people you describe? Yes. My email is deluged with scholarly/non scholarly ramblings. So I am keenly aware of, and somewhat contentious when non-specialists try to sound as if they are what they are not.

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antabanta
Senior Member
Registered:: September 13, 2001
Posts: 14912
Posted