quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
so are we suppose to throw away the other verses that are similar to 98.006? what a bunch of cotton picking ...lol

98:6 talks of those who are wrongdoers. It would be the same for Muslims who are wrongdoers. It is the opposite of 2:62. Wha yuh kno bout cotton pickin bai?

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
so are we suppose to throw away the other verses that are similar to 98.006? what a bunch of cotton picking ...lol

98:6 talks of those who are wrongdoers. It would be the same for Muslims who are wrongdoers. It is the opposite of 2:62. Wha yuh kno bout cotton pickin bai?

this goes back to the question I ask or something I said to dara .... looks like the jews, christians, buddhist believe in allah .... 2:62 dont hold up against 98.06 .... and they are other verses as well.

... and what happen to the hindus since they were not included.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
this goes back to the question I ask or something I said to dara .... looks like the jews, christians, buddhist believe in allah .... 2:62 dont hold up against 98.06 .... and they are other verses as well.

... and what happen to the hindus since they were not included.

Bai 2:62 suggests that Jews and Christians do believe in Allah. 98:06 talks with when they do wrong things. Even Muslims who believe in Allah do wrong things and they too expect to go to hell. Yuh ever heard a Muslim say that he is going to heaven. He would never be that presumptious. He is always hoping for heaven but know that things can be different.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Bai 2:62 suggests that Jews and Christians do believe in Allah. 98:06 talks with when they do wrong things. Even Muslims who believe in Allah do wrong things and they too expect to go to hell. Yuh ever heard a Muslim say that he is going to heaven. He would never be that presumptious. He is always hoping for heaven but know that things can be different.

"suggests"? christians and jews dont believe in allah nor the quran. And I guess there is no place for the Hindus and other religions.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
"suggests"? christians and jews dont believe in allah nor the quran. And I guess there is no place for the Hindus and other religions.

Read the verse again. It says.

whether you call yourself... if you believe in Allah... you have nothing to fear or grieve.

wha wrang wid yuh lately?

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Read the verse again. It says.

whether you call yourself... if you believe in Allah... you have nothing to fear or grieve.

wha wrang wid yuh lately?

other religions dont believe in allah ... then we have this verse to deal with and contradicts 2.62

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Read the verse again. It says.

whether you call yourself... if you believe in Allah... you have nothing to fear or grieve.

wha wrang wid yuh lately?

other religions dont believe in allah ... then we have this verse to deal with and contradicts 2.62

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Yuh pulling at straws now. Submission to Allah means submission to God.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Read the verse again. It says.

whether you call yourself... if you believe in Allah... you have nothing to fear or grieve.

wha wrang wid yuh lately?

other religions dont believe in allah ... then we have this verse to deal with and contradicts 2.62

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Yuh pulling at straws now. Submission to Allah means submission to God.

a religion other than islam! ..... then 5.72 also reinforce what I am saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Read the verse again. It says.

whether you call yourself... if you believe in Allah... you have nothing to fear or grieve.

wha wrang wid yuh lately?

other religions dont believe in allah ... then we have this verse to deal with and contradicts 2.62

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Yuh pulling at straws now. Submission to Allah means submission to God.

a religion other than islam! ..... then 5.72 also reinforce what I am saying.

Islam means submission to God. Simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Islam means submission to God. Simple as that.

we not talking what islam means ... we talking about hell for the other religions in the quran.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

Islam means submission to God. Simple as that.

we not talking what islam means ... we talking about hell for the other religions in the quran.

No. We were talking about the similarities of 2:62 and 98:6. dara and I said that they mean the same thing. You said they don't. I showed that they do. Next question? :))

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:

No. We were talking about the similarities of 2:62 and 98:6. dara and I said that they mean the same thing. You said they don't. I showed that they do. Next question? :))

bai you funny .. lol.

It cant mean same thing ... I going to dissect this topic as we go along. lol.

Now allah is saying here:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

then you can also read 9.29-30. People of the book refer to as jews and christians. These religion dont worship allah ... hindu dont worship allah. Are you saying that they have a chance to go to heaven even though they dont worship allah?

quote:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Good passage. But one thing, you forgot to post the context of the message and who it was directed to and who it was actually referring to. It was not a general statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:

Good passage. But one thing, you forgot to post the context of the message and who it was directed to and who it was actually referring to. It was not a general statement.

the verse was in line of the chapter content. Now I know someone was going to say sooner or later the verse is not what it is ... just like the other verses. I am waiting to hear that none verses in the quran is not what it is.

YOu are now creating new hermeneutics. NO ONE..no learned christian critic, no muslim, no scholar has ever suggested that the chapter names of the quran are indicative of the topic. All are agreed that as a primarily oral doc, the quran has to be explained in light of ALL its verses..and one qualifies another. This is now laughable. Tell me you are not making this up, please.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
YOu are now creating new hermeneutics. NO ONE..no learned christian critic, no muslim, no scholar has ever suggested that the chapter names of the quran are indicative of the topic. All are agreed that as a primarily oral doc, the quran has to be explained in light of ALL its verses..and one qualifies another. This is now laughable. Tell me you are not making this up, please.

I didnt/never suggested that the chapter name is indicative ..... how did you get to that?

I didnt/never suggested that the chapter name is indicative ..... how did you get to that?[/QUOTE]
U r right. Nonetheless, in an ORAL document, one has to put all the verses of a subject together. And for all the centuries, christian polemists reading the qur'an and its daring claim" if it were from other than god, you would have found much contraditions" have NEVER read the verses the way you now claim to do. They fully understood that People of the Book are entitled to heaven...UNLESS the break the tenets of their own faith..which is what the verses clearly state, and which as Kaz pointed out, applies to Muslims as well. So your point is?
On your polemic "sooner or later someone was going to say.." that indicates a problem...unless you understand the approach of the qurna, which apparently is clear to all except you on these particular verses. Once again, reread and you will see what i noted even before you came with this. Again..this is so simple..one wonders...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
U r right. Nonetheless, in an ORAL document, one has to put all the verses of a subject together. And for all the centuries, christian polemists reading the qur'an and its daring claim" if it were from other than god, you would have found much contraditions" have NEVER read the verses the way you now claim to do. They fully understood that People of the Book are entitled to heaven...UNLESS the break the tenets of their own faith..which is what the verses clearly state, and which as Kaz pointed out, applies to Muslims as well. So your point is?
On your polemic "sooner or later someone was going to say.." that indicates a problem...unless you understand the approach of the qurna, which apparently is clear to all except you on these particular verses. Once again, reread and you will see what i noted even before you came with this. Again..this is so simple..one wonders...

for all the intelligence yall have or claim to have on the quran .... you and ksa couldnt be more wrong. I am going to say this for the 3rd time .. the Jews, Hindus, Christians, and what have you dont believe in allah nor the quran. This makes them non believes. We all know who the people of the book is ... now what about the hindus?

Correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that hindus, jews, christians ect are going to heaven as long as they follow their own religion to a T, they dont need to worship allah or follow the quran to do so.

So did you study judaism? I have come with orthography and everything to show up..the abrahamic concept of the divine is ONE. eli, elohim, allah are all cognates. As for the hindus, in case you don't know it, bhagwan is a shared term. Yes, I am saying that those people..as far as we humans are concerned...have the right to heaven. I don't have the right to judge. Perhaps you should take this into consideration becuase ou seem obsessed with providing exegesis on a scripture you obviously don't understand, and on a subject in which the speciality is not something you command. IN case ou don't know it, the Rabbis ruled that a Jew can pray in a mosque, but not in a church. think about that.
Eli. Eli. Jesus' supposed words on the cross. The cognate makes that .ha eli...which comes as...you guessed it. Or if you ddid not..as the rabbis say, if you know you don't need to be told; if you don't know, you don't need to know...see ya. It is beyond my sphere of responsibility to tell you about the concept of Allah...even though I pointed out middle eastern christians use the term. But of course, since I am only a specialist in it, and you are higher, you would know that their christinaity is false and yours is right. Oh..i forgot..maybe they are muslims only pretending to be christians.

so was I correct to say that according to the quran that hindus are going to heaven?

To every nation we have sent a prophet.

For each among them we have made a program and a shariah

They say, none shall enter heaven unless he be a Jew or a christian. That is their conjecture. Say "bring your proof if you are telling the truth." In fact, whoever turns his face to god (literally: who seeks perfection in god), and does good deeds, for him is his reward..on him shall be no fear nor shall he grieve.


And when you finish the above, then go to cantwell smith's "end and menaning of religion" and read p. 112.
I can't continue this dude. I say to you Pax.
I hope we cool.

Kaz can post the verses if he so wishes.

BTW: from a quranic point, no one has any sure entry...as reflected in abraham's prayer. When God says to him that he is a leader, he asks, "And of my progeny"? The response is " my trust/covenant does not include those who do wrong."
This polemic, probably referring to Jewish claimants, is universal...it goes against ANY religion claiming entry based on faith in a certain belief. One has to put faith and practice together. THis is why Jesus also said "by their fruits ye shall know them."..that is universal for ALL faiths that I know...

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
To every nation we have sent a prophet.

For each among them we have made a program and a shariah

They say, none shall enter heaven unless he be a Jew or a christian. That is their conjecture. Say "bring your proof if you are telling the truth." In fact, whoever turns his face to god (literally: who seeks perfection in god), and does good deeds, for him is his reward..on him shall be no fear nor shall he grieve.


And when you finish the above, then go to cantwell smith's "end and menaning of religion" and read p. 112.
I can't continue this dude. I say to you Pax.
I hope we cool.

we cool .. lol. But I cant get the answer to my quesion. lol