lol.

So you said the other day that "halal" meat is an invention of some sick minds trying to make money. Do any other one agree with you on this subject on or off the forum?

then you said that all religion leads to one God .... only that it is practiced differently. Now you said the only meat that is not permissible is the meat when they are offer to idols. So what is your definition of idols in this sense?

I am going to get some chaser in the meantime.

U wutliss. Okay: here goes
Many agree with me on this issue. Mainly middle easterners. The verses, to them, seem pretty clear. Others get into such technicalities as how the slaughtering is to be done etc. A few years ago, a shaykh in Qatar caused a big furor when he said that there are more humane ways than throat cutting..
As for idols: these were the arabian idols that people worshipped, not to symbolise anything but as they were. TO the best of my knowledge.
An idol is that thing made by human hands and to which is ascribed supernatural powers.
Make sure hte chaser is pachownie and I will stick around longer.
(I know this may irk some of my coreligionists, but I really don't like the meat handling in some of the halaal stores: every blasted cut is curry cut. Tell them to give you chops, and you can't get it. God is going to tell me that I can eat the food of the People of the book then unbeknownst to me, send some order that only a muslim must now kill the meat? Nah, ain't working for dara's house. Plus I like KFC, and last time i checked, the colonel was not replaced by an ayatollah)

you want bush rum or white rum to go with the pachownie?

you have a quran verse or so prove your non-halal thingy. The problem is that halal has always been a stanch belief even amongst the guyanese. How did this come about? Since they practiced this from colonial days.

I do....
off the top of my head, the verse is from 5:5.
Remember in Guyana, the muslims there came from the background of India..and saw things in terms of Hindu/Muslim wherein the hindus were seen as idol worshippers. Remember too that after the death of Dara Shikoh, his bro Aurangzeb was such a fanatic that such beliefs about islamic supremacy became the norm.
The verse that many muslims use is in 5:3, based on a mistranslation:
Forbidden to you are.....and that which has been consecrated to other than god.?
Other verses from Chapter 14:
118 So eat of (meats) on which God''s name hath been pronounced if ye have faith in His Signs.
119 Why should ye not eat of (meats) on which God's name hath been pronounced when He hath explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you except under compulsion of necessity? But many do mislead (men) by their appetites unchecked by knowledge. Thy Lord knoweth best those who transgress. 944

121 Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been pronounced: that would be impiety. But the evil ones ever inspire their friends to contend with you; if ye were to obey them ye would indeed be pagans.

Nowq the last verse, if not taken in context, can lead to misunderstandings. It all has to do with ritual as all of the early books on commentary would show...the idolators used to dedicate meat to their idols and not touch that. They would leave aside some for themselves. Muslims who came from this backgroud are being told that when it comes to eating, they can mention the name of God and eat the meat. Note that the jurists also say that the TIME of mentioning is NOT at slaughter, but at consumption. This is a big difference.
One has to also distinguish: if an animal being slaughtered for a RITUAL or for mere consumption? The Quran is obviulsy referring to ritual practices (hence the weird prohibitions), but most muslims do not make this distinction.
I know this will irk some of my coreligionists, but not all of our foreparents were "scholars" and the masses won the day....

so how do you deal with the verses that talked about - animals should be slaughter in the name of allah.

verses 6:118,119,120,121
22.28, 34, 23

etc

I think the only exception given in the quran is - out of necessity, meaning life or death or unavoidable situation. No?

Lets take 6:118. This is where jurists say that it means at the time of consumption. For each muslim is supposed to mention the name of God. YEt, again it only reinforces the idea of ritual. And goes back to slapping at the pagan ritual as in 5:3. It is telling the Muslims who are saying that if they mention the name of God, it becomes for God only, that this is nonsense..that GOD clearly has stated (5:3) what is forbidden..
6:119 is the basis for a law: the basic rule in everything is permissibility.
All of this "name" business goes back to hitting out against pagan stuff. IF I grab a piece of chicken, eat it. No god mention. What is wrong with that? It is simply a matter of human need. If however, I want to make a ritual of it, and say 'bismillah" then what matters is that I supposedly get more blessings. But most Muslims (the masses, not the jurists) will go against me on the first part...taking the chicken and eating it. They are just being slaves to legalism and wanting to make every damn thing a religious rite.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:
so how do you deal with the verses that talked about - animals should be slaughter in the name of allah.

verses 6:118,119,120,121
22.28, 34, 23

etc

I think the only exception given in the quran is - out of necessity, meaning life or death or unavoidable situation. No?

YOu are right regarding the eating to that which would normally be forbidden. Added to that is forgetfulness, error. Life comes first.

DS I like your explanations and your attitude.
Perhaps I can learn a few things fm these serious discussions as my knowledge of this subject from a wider angle is very limited.

quote:

Originally posted by RQ:
DS I like your explanations and your attitude.
Perhaps I can learn a few things fm these serious discussions as my knowledge of this subject from a wider angle is very limited.

Thanks RQ. But that comes with a caveat. Because supposedly God judges every person based on that person's ability and perception. I am a jurist and admittedly among those who are called "mutasaahil"..the one who takes things easy. I think I am right, but of course, I can be wrong. IN which case, I can answer for myself. what is important is that whatver position one takes, that person can defend it.
SOme of the people who I go up against for being so legalistic are in terms of personal spirituality and humility far better than I can ever dream to be....
In the Bible, the rabbis say that we mistranslated "god says I am that I am>' Rather it is "I will be what I will be"...meanign God is as the worshipper beholds the divine...can be severe, can be gentle..whatever.
U notice argy took all the damn pachownie and run away? I hope he said bismillah before he put it in him mouth.

Now another stupid question if one who eats only halal meat is it ok for a non muslim say the prayers and then slaughter the animal, would that be halal all the same.?

Question ain't stupid. Because that is the premise under which many Muslims eat kosher meat..because they know that Jews say that name of Eli over the meat. But I see you perceive the nonsense that the legalism leads to.
I usually like to argue with them while talking about the tastiness of KFC. Talking about which..I am getting a craving for a wendy's here. I might go check her out later.
Stop swell up you mouth Toronta..is me and bird gyaffing.

hmmmmmm

so u mean to say dat if i say allah o akbar and cut de duck nek,den is hallal???

btw, hope u dun ignored wendy...

Now u leading to another pet peeve. But I am not going to touch that...just kill de damn duck dead, and when I eating it, I gonna say what I need to say.
I didna see wendy...had custard block (it was good), goat curry..omimooma..with cucumber raita and basmatti it was amazingalicious. Wendy can haul her arse.
Life is good.
YOu know, the best way to cure all this halaal/non-halaal crap is to eat vegetarian.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
[]the best way to cure all this halaal/non-halaal crap is to eat vegetarian.

and hindu....
wha a mean fo say...
is hindus supposed to be veggetarians
since dem meals should not consist
of the cooked meat of any other living 'creature' who LOST dem lives in de process
(wink)

So u mean dey can eat uncooked meat then?

okay, i read my post and was not too sure...
i know u will know what i know and you will know what i wanted to let you know...
caz u are in the know...HA

quote:

Originally posted by chameli:
okay, i read my post and was not too sure...
i know u will know what i know and you will know what i wanted to let you know...
caz u are in the know...HA

I know that you know that I know what you wanted me to know..I was just hoping to put anudda reader who ought to know in the know. I hope she know now and I will never ever hear a no.

you all confusing me brain wiht all this talk about eating/hindu/uncooked meat/know and not to know.... :)

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
So u mean dey can eat uncooked meat then?

as long as a life was not lost to get that meat to eat...clever eh!

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

I know this will irk some of my coreligionists, but not all of our foreparents were "scholars" and the masses won the day....

no wonder they are many different practices and belief within islam ... and each one of them think they are correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

I know this will irk some of my coreligionists, but not all of our foreparents were "scholars" and the masses won the day....

no wonder they are many different practices and belief within islam ... and each one of them think they are correct.

True. As it is in most religions. The difference, unfortunately for many Muslims, is that while Xity is clearly based on faith, and such faith allows for a multiplicity of beliefs since one experiences God differently, there is generally room for dissent. In Islam, the Qur'an clearly states that things are to be based on knowledge..like Judaism, this means that there is clearly a cadre of "scholars".(The rabbi is not a priest, but a scholar; in islam the 'alim is not a priest but also a scholar). YEt, for all of the focus on language in these two religions, many Muslims--especially those of the indian subcontinent..evolved into creating views that were totally discordant with the idea of pluralism...probably based on opposition twoards colonialism etc...but today it is a real problem..

quote:

Originally posted by rajkumari:
you all confusing me brain wiht all this talk about eating/hindu/uncooked meat/know and not to know.... :)

That is what happens when it comes to know..if you know you don't need to know, and if you don't know, you sometimes you don't have to know.

quote:

Originally posted by chameli:
as long as a life was not lost to get that meat to eat...clever eh!

My preference.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

quote:

Originally posted by rajkumari:
you all confusing me brain wiht all this talk about eating/hindu/uncooked meat/know and not to know.... :)

That is what happens when it comes to know..if you know you don't need to know, and if you don't know, you sometimes you don't have to know.

but i do know! I does only pretend that I dont know, to mek all who think they know, that they know more :)

Since you know, and chameli know, and I know, i guess we gonna be hearing a lot of know-knows.