If Eid falls on Jumuah, is the Eid khutbah sufficient for the Jumuah which will only require four rakaah fard for Zuhr with no second khutbah or is the second khutbah still required. Our Maulana said that there would be the Jumuah khutbah even if Eid is tomorrow. I thought that it was not necessary.

Thank you.

If the day of Eid coincides with Friday, then whoever prays Eid with the imaam does not have to attend Jumu’ah (it is not obligatory on him); in his case it becomes Sunnah. If he does not pray Jumu’ah, he has to pray Zuhr. This is in the case of people other than the imaam. As for the imaam, he has to be present for Jumu’ah and lead those Muslims who attend the prayer. The Jumu’ah prayer should not be forsaken completely on this day.

mmmmmm....interesting.

I learnt something here.

Is another who has not observed the Eid khutbah/salaah able to act as imaam or is the regular imaam compelled to do this more than one asimilar to everyone else? And if so, why?

quote:

Originally posted by ksazma:
If Eid falls on Jumuah, is the Eid khutbah sufficient for the Jumuah which will only require four rakaah fard for Zuhr with no second khutbah or is the second khutbah still required. Our Maulana said that there would be the Jumuah khutbah even if Eid is tomorrow. I thought that it was not necessary.

Thank you.

Your Maulana may not have explained things in detail but from an Usul point of view he is correct. The Eid observance and Jumuah are not in any way related. Two different rituals altogether. The Eid Salaah is supposed to be done in the a.m. Next its attendance is not something that is mandatory for all by any means.
The Jumauh is in the afternoon, its ritual is specifically mentioned in the Qur'an and its khutba is different to that of Eid. The Juma is in a mosque while the eid ought to be outside for the entire community and in theory, were we in an islamic country, every person who is of age ought to leave aside business and attend.
What one does in such a situation is to make announcements that the Eid will be a very short khutba, and that the Juma will also be very short so that the congregation can benefit from the time with their families etc. Or if one is long, the other should be short, but the Juma cannot be changed from its two section khutba.

quote:

Originally posted by limer:
If the day of Eid coincides with Friday, then whoever prays Eid with the imaam does not have to attend Jumu’ah (it is not obligatory on him); in his case it becomes Sunnah. If he does not pray Jumu’ah, he has to pray Zuhr. This is in the case of people other than the imaam. As for the imaam, he has to be present for Jumu’ah and lead those Muslims who attend the prayer. The Jumu’ah prayer should not be forsaken completely on this day.

This is why I noted my position as the "usul" position because the Juma is ordered in the Qur'an. And the law in Islam is "al amr yaqtadi al wujoob ilaa in sarafahu saarifun an dhalika'l madluul"...an imperative indicates compulsion/obligation except if there is some (strong) factor than indicates otherwise.
The rule is that a Quranic imperative cannot be pushed aside by anything a jurist might come up with as far as ritual is concerned. If you have the qadiya for this, I would like to see the reference, not to argue, just to study it carefully. In North America, the "fiqh al aqaliyat" can lead to unique decisions.

Thanks for the clarifications dara.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

quote:

Originally posted by limer:
If the day of Eid coincides with Friday, then whoever prays Eid with the imaam does not have to attend Jumu’ah (it is not obligatory on him); in his case it becomes Sunnah. If he does not pray Jumu’ah, he has to pray Zuhr. This is in the case of people other than the imaam. As for the imaam, he has to be present for Jumu’ah and lead those Muslims who attend the prayer. The Jumu’ah prayer should not be forsaken completely on this day.

This is why I noted my position as the "usul" position because the Juma is ordered in the Qur'an. And the law in Islam is "al amr yaqtadi al wujoob ilaa in sarafahu saarifun an dhalika'l madluul"...an imperative indicates compulsion/obligation except if there is some (strong) factor than indicates otherwise.
The rule is that a Quranic imperative cannot be pushed aside by anything a jurist might come up with as far as ritual is concerned. If you have the qadiya for this, I would like to see the reference, not to argue, just to study it carefully. In North America, the "fiqh al aqaliyat" can lead to unique decisions.

I think the above ruling came from an ibn Majah hadith..."Two Eids have come together on this day of yours; so whoever wishes, he is excused from the Jumu`ah (Friday) prayer. But as for us, we shall gather for the Jumu`ah." (Ibn Maajah).

Some say that those "excused" refer to the non-city dwellers who will find it difficult to pray the Eid salaat, go home and return for the Jumuah and as for the city dwellers, the jumuah is still fard...and Allah knows best.

quote:

Originally posted by limer:

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:

quote:

Originally posted by limer:
If the day of Eid coincides with Friday, then whoever prays Eid with the imaam does not have to attend Jumu’ah (it is not obligatory on him); in his case it becomes Sunnah. If he does not pray Jumu’ah, he has to pray Zuhr. This is in the case of people other than the imaam. As for the imaam, he has to be present for Jumu’ah and lead those Muslims who attend the prayer. The Jumu’ah prayer should not be forsaken completely on this day.

This is why I noted my position as the "usul" position because the Juma is ordered in the Qur'an. And the law in Islam is "al amr yaqtadi al wujoob ilaa in sarafahu saarifun an dhalika'l madluul"...an imperative indicates compulsion/obligation except if there is some (strong) factor than indicates otherwise.
The rule is that a Quranic imperative cannot be pushed aside by anything a jurist might come up with as far as ritual is concerned. If you have the qadiya for this, I would like to see the reference, not to argue, just to study it carefully. In North America, the "fiqh al aqaliyat" can lead to unique decisions.

I think the above ruling came from an ibn Majah hadith..."Two Eids have come together on this day of yours; so whoever wishes, he is excused from the Jumu`ah (Friday) prayer. But as for us, we shall gather for the Jumu`ah." (Ibn Maajah).

Some say that those "excused" refer to the non-city dwellers who will find it difficult to pray the Eid salaat, go home and return for the Jumuah and as for the city dwellers, the jumuah is still fard...and Allah knows best.

Thanks LImer....could make sense, although the non city dwellers would simply say that for Jumua they did not hear the adhan....but it does make sense.

Continuing this discussion, my best friend called me on Friday to confirm that I will be coming by his place at 4PM or later if I was fasting on Friday. I asked him if he was going for Jumuah and he said that he was not since he had already done the Eid khutbah. I related what we had discussed on this thread and later on when we were gathered around his dining table, he brought it up and his brother in law said that the jumuah was not necessary because only one khutbah was necessary since khutbahs are a way of disseminating information to the masses.

Here is where this discussion went and this is probably more important than the first. I continued that based on what we discussed here, the jumuah takes precedent over the eid. My friend's brother in law said that we are supposed to be at jumuah before the khutbah begins since the khutbah takes the place of the two rakaahs that are dropped off the regular zuhr salaah. My opinion is that the jumuah salaah are not missing two rakaahs because the format for the jumuah salaah is two rakaahs similar to how the format for the maghrib salaah is only three rakaahs.

So if the Qur'an commands us to to observe the jumuah salaah and the khutbah is part of that jumuah salaah, aren't we in disobedience when we don't observe it because we had already observed the eid khutbah which is not a faraid?

Thank you in advance for your clarification.

YOu are right. But when it comes to 'we" being in disobedience, one has to be careful..because although it was faulty "ijtihad" it was not done out of contumacy. IT simply represents part of the malaise of the muslim umma where they make god an accountant..this equals that, or this is worth two of that. If is for this reason that shias don't believe in Qiyas...you cannot apply the logic for one ruling or assumption to another matter, especially pertaining to worship, becuase you might not be aware of all the facets. If God did not specify they whys and wherefores, then it is simply a "nass"...and there is no ijtihad in such case. The Eid and salaat al juma are totally different rituals. In the same manner that one cannot substitute dhuhr for asr, so one cannot substitute eid for jumma. In the desert heat, one combines the dhuhr and asr...but the eid and jumma cannot be..as noted earlier, they are at different times. In the arab countries,following the sunna, one prays eid as soon as possible as conditions will allow after fajr.

From your writing, I assume you are diplomatic...better than I am in many cases on the issue of interaction. but my two cents worth..if someone is adamant about his/her position, even if you feel it is wrong, it is better sometimes to stay quiet. Following the example of Aaron in the matter of the golden calf. If he can stay quiet on a matter of shirk looking at the great good on unity, then so can we on these matters that are of far far lesser importance. I have learnt that with....damn...double damn..the passing of time.

I did not insist on anything. Just stated what I learnt and left it there. By friend's brother in law asked me to get a clairification from you. Does the khutbah really represents the two missing rakaahs of the dhuhr salaat and if so, is missing it compromising the injunction in the Qur'an? Thanks.

Sorry I missed that part. No..it does not. If one misses the khutba, and joins the two rakats, he does not have to complete it with anotehr two...as it ought to have been had the khutba been equal to the two of dhuhr. The salaat al juma has what we can term its "khasa'is"..and it is to be left as such, without us seeking to make any unsubstantiated claims.
I hae heard this one quite a lot...it is possible that some may have drawn that inference from the discipline and regulations that pertain to the friday khutba (another difference between eid and friday..the first one you can leave; the second one you are called to it).
Good you did not insist..one of the sad things I see is the arguments that happen. In my own family, what i find really funny is that guys who don't even pray or read the scripture will get into arguments about what is lawful. That is why I disappear into the kitchen.