Here is anodder wutliss question addressed to you too andre.
Rituals..that are so sacred, sometimes evolve out of mundane things, sometimes even nonsensical....unfortunately, I gotta agree with you on this one.
the symbolism aspect of simple folk often becomes so "holy" that people act like idiots. As for example the kissing of the black stone in Mecca..guys jostle each other over this thing!!! And i need not get into the fairytales about other aspects..

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Here is anodder wutliss question addressed to you too andre.
Rituals..that are so sacred, sometimes evolve out of mundane things, sometimes even nonsensical....unfortunately, I gotta agree with you on this one.
the symbolism aspect of simple folk often becomes so "holy" that people act like idiots. As for example the kissing of the black stone in Mecca..guys jostle each other over this thing!!! And i need not get into the fairytales about other aspects..

who made this to be a holy act?????

Good question. See, I don't want to sound racist here..but some people from some different areas take those simple acts of reverence and make it into a ritual. In some cases, from some places,yu should see them boys fight to kiss the thing. All educated muslims know it is not a holy act. But sometimes devotion mania gets the better of people. Do we judge them?
I have a problem here..how dare I judge a person who does what s/he does based on the limits of his/her knowhow? that person that I deplore may be a better human than I am. For all his/her nonsensical behavior. Strangely, I think Antabanta was perhaps touching on this in an earlier post. Not sure. just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
I thought Andre's last post had preempted the search for an answer?
In fairness to you though, you are embarking on what is known as phenomenology. Reds started it but backed off when she realised where it would lead.

Perhaps but my version is simplified (being a non-intellectual of course).
If god was created then he's a figment of human imagination and Krishna's question is pointless.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Good question. See, I don't want to sound racist here..but some people from some different areas take those simple acts of reverence and make it into a ritual. In some cases, from some places,yu should see them boys fight to kiss the thing. All educated muslims know it is not a holy act. But sometimes devotion mania gets the better of people. Do we judge them?
I have a problem here..how dare I judge a person who does what s/he does based on the limits of his/her knowhow? that person that I deplore may be a better human than I am. For all his/her nonsensical behavior. Strangely, I think Antabanta was perhaps touching on this in an earlier post. Not sure. just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I couldn't be that deep.

quote:

Originally posted by antabanta:

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Good question. See, I don't want to sound racist here..but some people from some different areas take those simple acts of reverence and make it into a ritual. In some cases, from some places,yu should see them boys fight to kiss the thing. All educated muslims know it is not a holy act. But sometimes devotion mania gets the better of people. Do we judge them?
I have a problem here..how dare I judge a person who does what s/he does based on the limits of his/her knowhow? that person that I deplore may be a better human than I am. For all his/her nonsensical behavior. Strangely, I think Antabanta was perhaps touching on this in an earlier post. Not sure. just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I couldn't be that deep.

I don't know if you being just sarcastic or wutliss..in which case it is just as good taht amral took off the smybol for smile.

as a non muslim, non, non jew, non hindu.

can i still go to heaven?christian

U rass to damn wutliss. Remember that Judaism/ Christianity/Islam/ bahaism/Sikhism are monotheistic religions in terms of their outward symbolism. because of the time of the founding of these religions, and their lack of the understanding of their philosophoers of indo concepts, their thinkers said no.
Yet, the Qur'an says "to every nation we have sent a messenger. " "For each among you there is a way and a program". "Whoever turns towards God and does good, for him is his reward."
THose who believe, the Jews, the Christians, the Sabeans, whoever believes in God and the last day and does good deeds..."
Now which hindu who has a brain and follows his belief, denies a god? WHich hindu who has a brain denies doing good? WHich Muslim who has a working brain takes upon himself to judge who gets into heaven?
"Peity is not that that you turn your faces towards east or west, but it is that you believe in God.....and then the verse launches into an ethical list that matches the good of every religon I know.
ANy Muslim/Christian/Jew who takes it upon himself to become God's unhired gatekeeper to heaven should question his own eligibility for in making that judgment, he has committed shirk: associating partners with God by usurping the mantle of judgment that is only God's.

Sorry Cher..I know i was long winded, but Dara don't like to leave doubts.

Buddhists don't have a god. Why should they? in all the religions that have a god, we see illogical attributions to the divine, making the divine look like a capricious, sadistic jackass. Forgiving the murderer for making a statement of belief in God, for letting a good person go to hell for one sin. The buddhists in fact focus on the dimension of ethics..and they seek to Perfect THEMSELVES..which linguistically is a statement of islam. Wherever Siddharta Gautama is after judgment, I wish to serve him some mauby.

Krish: you read books by Iqbal? The R.soemting of Islamic thought. It is dense..but he debunks ALL the arguments for the existence of God then in the end says he believes. This is akin, in my mind, to the hindu concept of bhakti, at least in one dimension. I look to Indo thinkers because they are much more deeper than the avearge arab, having been exposed to hindu thought (which influenced greek thought, which influenced islmaic thought, which trumped judeo-christian theology in the medieval period.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Buddhists don't have a god. Why should they? in all the religions that have a god, we see illogical attributions to the divine, making the divine look like a capricious, sadistic jackass. Forgiving the murderer for making a statement of belief in God, for letting a good person go to hell for one sin. The buddhists in fact focus on the dimension of ethics..and they seek to Perfect THEMSELVES..which linguistically is a statement of islam. Wherever Siddharta Gautama is after judgment, I wish to serve him some mauby.

dara ..which God do you worship ??? laad yu confusing me rass sometimes bannas.:):)

Rabb al alamin. The Lord of all the worlds. the one who transcends gender and name. The one for whom there are "al asma al husna" the one whose name does not exist only in arabic. The one known as allah, eli, bhagwan, god, om...brahman.
The buddist religion is something unique..in all other religions, one tries to do what pleases God, in budd, one BECOMES the buddha...it would, in sufi terminology, be fana on a certain level....or in hinduism, a sort of moksha...(budd call it nirvana). It is difficult for us to beyond the shadow of a dobut talk about what buddha actually felt, for after all hte man was from a hindu background and educated in hindi symbolims. His followers, in the break from hinduism, cut out that association. The way we muslims, when we cut off Jewish imagery, lost track of some of the biblical imagery and took it as literal.

OY mikay...I see where you coming from. THe Qur'an says to Muhammad "Lasta alayhim bi musaytir>"

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Rabb al alamin. The Lord of all the worlds. the one who transcends gender and name. The one for whom there are "al asma al husna" the one whose name does not exist only in arabic. The one known as allah, eli, bhagwan, god, om...brahman.
The buddist religion is something unique..in all other religions, one tries to do what pleases God, in budd, one BECOMES the buddha...it would, in sufi terminology, be fana on a certain level....or in hinduism, a sort of moksha...(budd call it nirvana). It is difficult for us to beyond the shadow of a dobut talk about what buddha actually felt, for after all hte man was from a hindu background and educated in hindi symbolims. His followers, in the break from hinduism, cut out that association. The way we muslims, when we cut off Jewish imagery, lost track of some of the biblical imagery and took it as literal.

rass yu had to wine all ova de place and still yu na answer me frigging question..why yu so haad mouth far dara...like ah gun gat fu send ova some ah dis pull-low-re wid mango chat-nee wa ah gat hey fu yu beore yu answer me question.

Sarree bhai. Rabb al alamin.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Sarree bhai. Rabb al alamin.

wa dis meen ?

Rabb al alamin: second verse of fatiha. The lord of all the worlds.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Rabb al alamin: second verse of fatiha. The lord of all the worlds.

now yu talking business...Dara there are non muslims reading this thread too so please give the meaning when you dham sallay we wid yu arabick ya. OK.:):)

Cool. Sorry. BUt sometimes I put it in arabic to let some haters know that they don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by dara shikoh:
Cool. Sorry. BUt sometimes I put it in arabic to let some haters know that they don't know.

cool bro..sometimes yu doze gee me nara fu go and check up dem too..please gee we the meening next time...some pull-lou-re coming up :)

I got a cd rom...it has the quran, most hadith etc pun it. if you need lemme know. If you in contat with chief, I can get it to him. ALIM it is called. I am trying to find a programmer who will get me one with the BIBLE and ALIM on the same cd...as well as some Jewish talmud...if any gni'er into that, lemme know..i will pay.